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Caryl Leventhal's Second Deposition Taken 02 May 2000 and Posted in its Entirety |
For those using music capable Internet Explorer or AOL, text accompanied by Marlene Dietrich's "Falling In Love Again"
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Ms. Leventhal's deposition was conducted within an environment of crank calls, and a recorded death threat by the US Department of Justice that the Leventhals either drop the process or be taken care of, "Nazi style." Subsequently, Alan R. Kaufman Chief of the US Attorney's Office Criminal Division (through Ms. Leventhal's Attorney) will threaten arrest and prosecution if this website isn't censored). Caryl Leventhal was one of the first US Department of Justice Immigration and Naturalization Service whistleblowers to the type of terrorist friendly corruption and indolence endemic in the USDOJ Immigration and Naturalization Service that will subsequently lead to the death of thousands in America. Thanks to the way laws are structured in America, this can not be a bases of her suit. These concerns and obstructionism in the internal USDOJ INS Administrative Complaint Process motivated Ms. Leventhal to bring her suit to court. She hopes to get testimony to these abuses before it is too late. Some of this can be found in the deposition of Brenda Grant.
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C. B. LEVENTHAL 61
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
---------------------------------
CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
Plaintiff,
- against -
HON. JANET RENO, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED
STATES,
Defendant.
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36 West 44th Street
New York, New York
May 2, 2000
2:05 P.M.
CONTINUING EXAMINATION BEFORE TRIAL of CARYL B.
LEVENTHAL, the Plaintiff herein, taken by the
Defendant, pursuant to Federal Rules and Regulations,
and Order, held at the above-mentioned time and place,
before Anita M. Cummo, a Notary Public of the State of
New York.
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C. B. LEVENTHAL
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2 MICHAEL R. BRESSLER, ESQ.
Attorney for Plaintiff
3 36 West 44th Street, 11th floor
New York, New York 10036
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
6 U.S. Attorney's Office
Southern District of New York
7 Attorney for Defendant
100 Church Street, 19th floor
8 New York, New York 10007
BY: ERIC B. FISHER
9 Assistant U.S. Attorney
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11 ALSO PRESENT:
12 LILA AYERS
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1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
2 among counsel for the respective parties hereto, that
3 the sealing and certification of the within deposition
4 shall be and the same are hereby waived;
5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
6 all objections, except to the form of the question,
7 shall be reserved to the time of the trial;
8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
9 the within deposition may be signed before any Notary
10 Public with the same force and effect as if signed and
11 sworn to before the Court.
12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
13 counsel representing the witness examined herein shall
14 be furnished with a copy of the within deposition
15 without charge.
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1 C-A-R-Y-L B. L-E-V-E-N-T-H-A-L, after
2 having first been duly sworn by a Notary Public of the
3 State of New York, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5 MR. FISHER: Good afternoon. Do you
6 understand that today's deposition is a
7 continuation of your earlier deposition?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
9 MR. FISHER: Let me briefly go over some of
10 the ground rules.
11 If you don't understand the question that I
12 put to you, let me know, and I will rephrase it
13 for you. Is that clear?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MR. FISHER: You must provide an audible
16 response so the court reporter can take down
17 your answer. Is that clear?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 EXAMINATION BY
20 MR. FISHER:21 Q Please state your name for the record.
22 A Caryl B. Leventhal.
23 Q What is your present home address?
24 A 197 Seventh Avenue, Brooklyn, New York
25 11215.
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1 Q Is there any condition that you aware that
2 would interfere with your ability to provide truthful
3 and accurate testimony?
4 A No.
' 5 THE WITNESS: May I make a brief statement?
6 MR. FISHER: Is that in response to a
7 question?
8 THE WITNESS: No. This is a general
9 statement that I would like to make, if I may.
10 MR. FISHER: You have brought other
11 documents with you, today?
12 THE WITNESS: These are notes to organize
13 my thinking.
14 MR. FISHER: That's fine. I would ask that
15 at the conclusion of the deposition that I be
16 provided with copies of the notes.
17 MR. BRESSLER: Yes.
18 MR. FISHER: Read your statement.
19 THE WITNESS: "I feel okay now, but I have
20 multiple sclerosis. I get fatigued very easily.
21 When I become fatigued I suffer mental
22 confusion. I could easily misunderstand the
23 question and give the wrong answer."
24 MR. FISHER: I would say that if at any
25 time today you become aware of feeling confused
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1 or have any sense that your answers are not
2 accurate, let me know, and we can pause and give
3 you an opportunity to regain your composure at
4 that time. If, at any time, you don't feel well
5 enough to continue, then we can terminate the
6 deposition at that time.
7 THE WITNESS: I understand.
8 Q Am I correct that you claim that your
9 multiple sclerosis was exacerbated in the summer of
10 1995?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What do you mean that it was exacerbated?
13 A It was exacerbated by a premature offer
14 that was made by a Robert Brouillet of the I.N.S. for
15 the position of supervisory applications clerk.
16 Q You believe that that premature offer
17 caused the exacerbation of your multiple sclerosis; is
18 that right?
19 A I was given a specific date to start. At
20 about five days before the starting date, I received a
21 phone call, and he said I would not be able to start
22 because there were other people who had points that
23 were in front of me, but I did have and I had already
24 given notice to my current employer.
25 Q It's that situation that you believe caused
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1 the exacerbation of your multiple sclerosis?
2 A It did not help; let's put it that way. It
3 did not help.
4 Q When you say that it was exacerbated, how
5 did that manifest itself?
6 How did it affect you?
7 A Do you want symptoms? Symptoms is a
8 situation where I believe I am able to function in a
9 logical, coherent manner in a workplace as well as in
10 my daily routine.
11 MR. FISHER: Yes, that's the question.
12 Q What kind of activity can you not do during
13 the period of time when your multiple sclerosis is
14 exacerbated?
15 A I am not able to work. I am not able to,
16 basically -- What specifically are you referring to?
17 I know you said daily routine, but I am not able to
18 work. I am not able to basically, say, for example,
19 take the subway to work. I am not able to do much
20 more than walk my dog around the block.
21 Q When did this period of exacerbation begin,
22 as best you can tell, in the summer of 1995?
23 A Are you looking for a specific day, a
24 specific month?
25 Q As specific as you can be.
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1 A This, I believe, was June of 1995.
2 Q Approximately how long did this period of
3 exacerbation last?
4 A This lasted for several months.
5 Q Was your improvement gradual or was there a
6 radical improvement following a period of
7 exacerbation?
8 A It's usually gradual.
9 Q At what point were you feeling well?
10 At what point were you feeling well enough
11 to commence work?
12 A I did not have a job to go to.
13 Q At what point did you feel as though you
14 were well enough to start work, if you had a job?
15 A It would have been late October of 1995.
16 Q After your initial conversation with
17 Mr. Brouillet when he made a premature offer, did you
18 have a subsequent conversation with him?
19 A It's been so long.
20 Q Did there come a time when Mr. Brouillet
21 invited to you start work at the Immigration and
22 Naturalization Service?
23 A I finally, after several phone calls made
24 by my husband as well as myself, I finally received a
25 letter in, I believe, September of 1995 offering me
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1 the position of supervisory applications clerk.
2 Q What did you do in response to the letter?
3 A I told him that I would be able to start in
4 late October of 1995.
5 Q Was that a telephone conversation that you
6 had with Mr. Brouillet?
7 A I don't recall. It may have been.
8 Q Or it may have been in person?
9 A It was not in person.
10 Q Do you recall when this conversation took
11 place?
12 A It also may have been a letter.
13 Q You may have notified Mr. Brouillet by
14 letter that you felt prepared to begin employment in
15 October of 1995?
16 A Right, middle to late October of 1995.
17 Q Is that, in fact, when you began your
18 employment with the I.N.S.?
19 A I began employment in I.N.S. October 23rd
20 or 25th of 1995.
21 Q On your first day of work, who did you
22 report to?
23 A I reported to Robert Brouillet. Actually,
24 the first people that I saw, I believe, were -- I'm
25 trying to remember their names, the two clerical
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1 people in Admin, A-D-M-I-N.
2 Q What was the substance of your meeting with
3 the two clerical employees in Admin?
4 A It was basically -- I'm trying to think of
5 the correct words. It was an introduction, for lack
6 of a better word, to the functions of the I.N.S. and
7 an overview of the I.N.S.
8 Q Did that include a discussion of the
9 specific position for which you were hired?
10 A That had been done during the interviewing
11 process.
12 Q During the interviewing process, who was it
13 that described to you what your responsibilities would
14 be as supervisory applications clerk?
15 A There was a Rose Chapman and a woman, I
16 don't recall -- her last name was Gee.
17 Q G-E-E?
18 A It may be, yeah.
19 MR. BRESSLER: Maybe G-E.
20 Q What did these two women tell you about the
21 position?
22 A They said that I would be supervising the
23 clerical pool in Section 245, and I would be
24 responsible basically for the flow of paperwork within
25 that area. They also told me that anything they had
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1 said, I remember, I believe it was Miss Chapman, Rose
2 Chapman said, "We will be able to train you. You will
3 have training as you go along." They were very
4 impressed with my background.
5 Q Did they tell you how many clerical
6 employees you would be supervising?
7 A They said approximately 20 to 30.
8 Q Did they tell you what your hours would be?
9 A They said that I had a choice of hours.
10 Q What was the choice?
11 A Actually, that was later on when I got
12 there. They said the choice of hours, I believe,
13 would be 7:30 to three o'clock or 8:30 to five
14 o'clock.
15 Q Which of those choices did you ultimately
16 select?
17 A The early one.
18 Q 7:30 to three?
19 A Yes, right, 7:30 to three.
20 Q Did they give you a sense of the volume of
21 paperwork that you would be responsible for?
22 A They said it was -- basically, the
23 situation were cases are constantly being adjudicated,
24 that there is a steady flow of paperwork.
25 Q Before you started work at the I.N.S., did
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1 you have any other conversations with anyone else
2 about the specific responsibilities of the position of
3 supervisory applications clerk?
4 A Before I actually started?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Okay. When I had first gone on the
7 interview with Miss Gee, Rose Chapman, I had
8 discussions with them. That was basically it. There
9 was another person. I'm trying to remember her name.
10 I think it was a Mary Richards, Richardson. I'm not
11 sure of the name.
12 Q But you had a conversation with this person
13 about the responsibilities of the position?
14 A Yes. But please understand these
15 conversations were not specific. They were relatively
16 vague.
17 Q What do you recall about conversations with
18 Miss Richards or Richardson?
19 A She had shown me where the clerical pool
20 was, the tenth floor, and she was pointing out
21 specific individuals in the clerical pool commenting
22 on their backgrounds in terms of, you know, the amount
23 of work a specific person would do. Some were better
24 than others.
25 Q Did she tell you anything else about the
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1 position?
2 A Basically, she said it was a situation
3 where the idea is just to keep the paperwork flowing.
4 Q Did you see anything in writing that
5 detailed the responsibilities of the supervisory
6 applications clerk?
7 A I'm sorry?
8 Q Before you began your appointment with
9 I.N.S.?
10 A No, I don't recall that.
11 Q Did there come a time that you did see a
12 written job description for supervisory applications
13 clerk?
14 A I don't recall that.
15 Q Is it fair to say that your understanding
16 of what the position entailed was based on those
17 conversations that you just detailed for me?
18 A Yes.
19 Q On your first day of work after you
20 reported to the two clerical employees in
21 Administration, who did you report to next?
22 A I saw Robert Brouillet.
23 Q What was the substance of your meeting with
24 Mr. Brouillet?
25 A Very brief. He walked by me, he looked at
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1 me, and he said, "I wanted to see what you looked
2 like."
3 Q What do you think he meant by that?
4 A Well, I took -- it was almost an accusatory
5 type, an accusatory manner, any information that I had
6 gotten about, for example, benefits of the two
7 clerical individuals, the two clerical people from
8 Admin had given me, okay. That was basically what
9 they had told me verbally, but he did not go into any
10 detail about anything. It was almost -- it was almost
11 as if he did not want to speak to me. I also remember
12 seeing a film on I.N.S., the overall function of
13 I.N.S. within the Justice Department and what the
14 I.N.S. does very generalized and that was presented by
15 the two clerical individuals. I remember this one's
16 name, I can't remember, Earlene, and I forgot name of
17 the other person.
18 Q Aside from telling you that he wanted to
19 see what you looked like, did he tell you anything
20 else?
21 A Nothing.
22 Q Mr. Brouillet walked by, said that he
23 wanted to see what you looked like and continued
24 walking?
25 A Yes. I was sitting down as I am here
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1 looking at you. He was standing over me. He peered
2 in my face, did not smile, said "I wanted to see what
3 you looked like" in a very ominous tone.
4 Q In your view, why is it that Mr. Brouillet
5 was speaking to you in an ominous tone and in an
6 accusatory manner?
7 A He had made an offer to me, the initial
8 offer in, I believe, May of 1995. I was to start in
9 June of 1995. He rescinded the offer and over that
10 summer, after a series of phone calls between.
11 myself -- he would not come to the phone, I might
12 have -- often times when I would call, he would not
13 come to the phone. I would speak to Stephanie and
14 Mr. Brouillet would not be available. I remember he
15 told my husband just sit tight. He told me that,
16 excuse me, just sit tight. This type of thing happens
17 all the time.
18 Q In total, just so that I understand the
19 complete picture, how many telephone conversations did
20 you have with Mr. Brouillet before you reported to
21 work at the I.N.S. in October of 1995?
22 A Me, personally?
23 Q First, you personally.
24 A I believe I spoke with him once or twice.
25 Q How many telephone conversations did your
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1 husband have with Mr. Brouillet before you started
2 work?
3 A That I don't know. Twice, maybe three
4 times. There were letters, however, that my
5 husband -- and at my instruction because I was not
6 able to because I was having an exacerbation of my
7 multiple sclerosis at that time, wrote to
8 Mr. Brouillet for me requesting that my offer be
9 reinstated.
10 Q Did Mr. Brouillet ever respond to those
11 letters in writing?
12 A I don't believe so. I may be wrong on
13 that. I don't believe so.
14 Q Based on the telephone conversations and
15 letters exchanged with Mr. Brouillet, you believe that
16 those form the basis for Mr. Brouillet's ominous tone
17 and accusatory manner on your first day of work?
18 A I don't understand the question. If you
19 could -
20 MR. FISHER: I will rephrase.
21 THE WITNESS: Please, if you would.
22 MR. FISHER: I withdraw that question.
23 Q Did you have any other interaction with
24 Mr. Brouillet on your first day of employment?
25 A No.
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Q At what point during the day did
Mr. Brouillet walk by you?
A In the morning. I mean, I reported at 7:30
in the morning.
Q Who else did you meet with during your
first day at work?
A Well, I met with Stephanie from Admin. I
think her name was Stephanie Braun, I believe, and
there was another individual. I think her name was
Earlene or whatever.
Q Do you know whether those two employees
report to Mr. Brouillet?
A Yes, they do. They did at that time.
Q You mentioned the film about the I.N.S. and
general information that they provided to you about
the I.N.S.
A Yes.
Q Did they provide you with any information?
A Pertaining to what, specifically, benefits?
Q Pertaining to your employment with I.N.S.,
anything else that you can remember about your meeting
with them?
A Well, basically, it was filling out forms
as far as benefits, who my beneficiary would be,
things like that.
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1 Q Did you say anything in response to
2 Mr. Brouillet when he said, "I just wanted to see what
3 you looked like"?
4 A Not that I recall. I may have said
5 "Hello."
6 Q Did he shake your hand?
7 A No.
8 Q After your meeting with the two clerical
9 employees, who did you report to next?
10 A I was taken by one of the two clerical
11 people to the tenth floor to Section 245.
12 Q Did they show you to your desk?
13 A They introduced me to people in Section 245
14 on the tenth floor. They showed me the people there.
15 I believe it was Brenda Grant, also Gwynne MacPherson.
16 They showed me where my desk would be.
17 Q Did they tell you who your supervisor would
18 be?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Who was that?
21 A Brenda Grant.
22 Q How did you find out that Ms. Grant was
23 your supervisor?
24 A I believe she told me.
25 Q Did you report to anyone?
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1 Were you told that you would be reporting
2 to anyone else aside from Ms. Grant?
3 A Ms. Grant was my first-line supervisor,
4 when Gwynne MacPherson was my second-line supervisor.
5 Q Did you have any conversations with
6 Ms. Grant during your first day of employment about
7 your responsibilities as supervisory applications
8 clerk?
9 A I'm sure I did.
10 Q Do you recall anything about those
11 conversations?
12 A Not offhand.
13 Q Do you recall any conversation at all that
14 you had with Ms. Grant during your first day of work?
15 A Pertaining to what, specifically?
16 Q Pertaining to your employment there, your
17 responsibilities or anything that related to your
18 employment at I.N.S.
19 A Please understand, it's been almost four
20 and a half years. This was October of 1995, so time
21 has flown.
22 Q You cannot remember any conversation?
23 A Well, I can't remember specific
24 conversations per se. I do remember when I was taken
25 to the tenth floor meeting, Brenda Grant, Gwynne
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1 MacPherson, they were all standing in the back of the
2 room, and Gwynne MacPherson said, "We have been
3 waiting for you" in an almost intimidating manner.
4 Q What do you mean when you say she said "We
5 have been waiting for you" in an intimidating manner"
6 A It wasn't "Welcome, we're glad to see you."
7 No one ever said that.
8 Q Did she mean to imply or is it your
9 understanding that there was much work to be done?
10 A I do not know.
11 Q Could you recall any other interaction
12 either with Ms. MacPherson or Ms. Grant on that first
13 day of work?
14 A No, I don't.
15 Q Aside from Ms. Grant and Ms. MacPherson,
16 did you report to anyone else at I.N.S.?
17 A At that time, no.
18 Q On that first day of work, did you actually
19 get any work done or was it mostly a day devoted to
20 orientation?
21 A More orientation.
22 Q Did anyone talk to you about what your job
23 entailed and how you should go about doing it?
24 MR. BRESSLER: On the first day?
25 MR. FISHER: To begin with, let's start
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1 with the first day.
2 A They introduced me to people, the various
3 people in the clerical pool. I do remember that,
4 being introduced to people there.
5 Q These are the people who you were to be
6 supervising?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you recall how many clerical employees
9 you met that day?
10 A Probably, give or take, about 15, 16.
11 Q Altogether, how many employees did report
12 to you?
13 A At what point in time?
14 Q Within your first few months of work.
15 A It varied. It did vary. It could have
16 been anywhere from maybe 15 up to 20.
17 Q During your entire period of time of
18 employment with I.N.S., did the number of employees
19 who reported to you vary between 15 and 20,
20 approximately?
21 A It could have been more.
22 Q Did all of those 15 to 20 employees or
23 possibly more report directly to you?
24 A Yes.
25 Q There was no supervisor in between you and
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1 those clerical employees?
2 A Not officially.
3 Q How about unofficially?
4 A Unofficially, Brenda Grant who had, from
5 what I understand, had been the supervisory
6 applications clerk in that position for several years.
7 She still was basically supervising the area.
8 Q At what point did that become clear to you?
9 A That became clear after the first few days.
10 Q When you say "she was still basically
11 supervising the area," what do you mean?
12 A She was there. She micromanaged even
13 though she was further up. She wasn't an applications
14 clerk. She had been an applications clerk at one
15 time, and from what I observed, she micromanaged the
16 area even though she was not the supervisory
17 applications clerk.
18 Q What are some examples of her micromanaging
19 the area?
20 A Basically, for example, when she would have
21 meetings for, you know, staff, what I refer to as
22 "staff," there were often times when I was not even
23 told that a meeting was going to be taking place, and
24 I was left out of the loop. But she would go to my
25 supervisor. Excuse me, I'm trying to think of the
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1 titles. The lead clerk, Dolores Filbert. She would
2 always go to Dolores Filbert who was under me and she
3 would talk to Dolores Filbert what had to be done or
4 needed to be done in the area rather than going to me
5 directly.
6 Q You referred to Dolores Filbert as the lead
7 clerk?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What were the responsibilities of the lead
10 clerk?
11 A The lead clerk, from I understand, is there
12 to assist the supervisory applications clerk, which I
13 was, in the day-to-day distribution of work to make
14 sure that everyone in the clerical pool had work to do
15 and to make sure that the work itself was that the
16 flow of work was, you know, kept in motion.
17 Q When did you first meet Ms. Filbert?
18 A I believe it was the first day.
19 Q As supervisory applications clerk, were you
20 actually responsible for doing the paperwork or was it
21 merely a supervisory role?
22 A A supervisory role.
23 Q How about lead clerk?
24 Was Ms. Filbert responsible for doing the
25 clerical work, or was it her responsible for managing
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1 the flow of the paperwork?
2 A She was to assist in managing the flow of
3 the paperwork. She had been there, from what I
4 understand, she had been there for several years, ten
5 years, and she had been hired by Ms. Grant. They knew
6 each other for several years.
7 Q What's Ms. Filbert's race?
8 A She is Caucasian.
9 Q How about Ms. Grant?
10 A Ms. Grant is an African-American.
11 Q How about Ms. MacPherson?
12 A Ms. MacPherson is Caucasian married to an
13 African-American.
14 Q Do you know the race of the spouse of
15 either Ms. Filbert or Ms. Grant?
16 A Ms. Grant's spouse is African-American. I
17 do not know the race of Ms. Filbert's husband. I
18 assume it's Caucasian.
19 Q Before you became supervisory applications
20 clerk, was the position vacant?
21 A I believe the person who preceded me was an
22 African-American who lived in Queens and had retired
23 after several years work for I.N.S.
24 Q Do you know when she retired?
25 A That I don't. I believe it was -- I
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1 believe it was the winter of 1995. Excuse me, I
2 believe it was actually the fall of 1994.
3 Q To the best of your knowledge, from the
4 fall of 1994, until you began work in October of 1995,
5 was there someone else who had the title of
6 supervisory applications clerk?
7 A I don't believe so, but I'm not sure.
8 Q During that period of time, do you know who
9 performed the functions that were to be performed by
10 the supervisory applications clerk?
11 A I do not know.
12 Q Do you know who Ms. MacPherson, your
13 second-line supervisor, reported to?
14 A She reported to a Mr. Edward McIlroy.
15 Q Did you ever have occasion to meet
16 Mr. McIlroy?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q To this day, that's true?
19 A Yes, that's still true.
20 Q During your period of employment with the
21 I.N.S., did you ever have any other title aside from
22 supervisory applications clerk?
23 A No, I did not.
24 Q What was your salary when you began your
25 employment with I.N.S.?
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A I believe it was -- I don't have it in
front of me. I believe it was approximately
twenty-three thousand three hundred when I started.
Q Do you know what it was at the time that
you stopped working for I.N.S.?
A When I was fired?
Q Yes.
A It was over twenty-four thousand.
Q Was it less than twenty-five thousand?
A Yes.
Q During your period of employment with the
I.N.S., did you ever work overtime?
A Yes, I did.
Q Approximately, how often would you work
overtime?
A In terms of number of hours or because,
excuse me, it would go on an hourly basis.
Q In terms of number of hours then.
A Per week, I may have worked maybe -- now
again, please understand it's been several years since
all this has happened, but, I believe, on the average
maybe five, six hours, maybe eight hours.
Q Per week?
A Per week. Sometimes there were no hours of
overtime.
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1 Q How were you compensated for overtime
2 hours?
3 A I believe it was time and a half.
4 Q How did you learn to do your job as
5 supervisory applications clerk?
6 A I asked questions. I asked a lot of
7 questions and, basically, I tried to have various
8 applications clerks sit with me to show me how to do
9 the work. Actually, the job of the applications
10 clerk -- is that what you are referring to?
11 Q Yes. I'm referring to your job as
12 supervisory applications clerk.
13 The question is how you learned to perform
14 the responsibilities of that job?
15 A I would ask Ms. Grant. I would ask
16 Ms. MacPherson. I would also ask Dolores Filbert
17 because Ms. Filbert had been there at that time
18 several years, ten years.
19 Q Anyone else?
20 A Not that I can think of.
21 Q You referred a moment ago to applications
22 clerks?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you also speak to applications clerks
25 to get an understanding of how you could best perform
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1 your job?
2 A I spoke to applications clerks to
3 understand what they were doing since I was
4 supervising the flow of their work.
5 Q Focusing now on Ms. Grant, what did you
6 learn from Ms. Grant about what she expected of you in
7 terms of your job performance?
8 A With Ms. Grant, it was a situation -- she
9 was concerned about having paperwork done and pushed
10 through as quickly as possible.
11 Q She expected you to supervise a large
12 quantity of paperwork?
13 A She did. She also expected it to be pushed
14 through as quickly as possible whether it was correct
15 or incorrect.
16 Q Did she ever tell you that she didn't care
17 whether the work was correct or incorrect?
18 A She didn't have to.
19 Q Why not?
20 A Because of her attitude.
21 Q What was it about her attitude that made
22 you feel she did not care about the quality of the
23 work?
24 A Because she emphasized that basically the
25 work had to be done and it had to be pushed through.
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1 Q Aside from telling you that she expected
2 you to push through a lot of the work very quickly,
3 what else did Ms. Grant tell you about what she
4 expected of you in your role as supervisory
5 applications clerk?
6 A She wanted me to make sure -- she wanted me
7 to make sure that I knew where each and every clerical
8 person was at any given moment.
9 Q She told you that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Anything else that she told you she
12 expected of as supervisory applications clerk?
13 A Could you? I'm sorry. Could you? I don't
14 quite understand the question.
15 Q I am asking about anything that Ms. Grant
16 communicated to you about her expectations for your
17 work as supervisory applications clerk.
18 A Okay. The clerical people had a tendency
19 rather that doing their work and just wandering around
20 and disappearing, and she wanted to know where each
21 person was at any given time. If I was not sitting at
22 my desk, she would say "Where's this person or that
23 person?" If I got up, she would later say "You were
24 not at your desk. You should be at your desk at all
25 times to supervise these people."
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1 Q In addition to the items that you already
2 identified, knowing the whereabouts of all the
3 clerical employees, processing a large quantity of
4 work very quickly, was there anything else that
5 Ms. Grant indicated to you about what she expected of
6 you as supervisory applications clerk?
7 A If you could ask me a specific question. I
8 can't give a vague generality.
9 MR. FISHER: I'm not asking for a vague
10 generality. I can't give a more specific
11 question because I don't know the information,
12 and I'm trying to learn it from you.
13 Q The question is, in thinking about if you
14 had to make a list of everything that Ms. Grant said
15 about what she expected of you as supervisory
16 applications clerk, what would you include on that
17 list?
18 A I would include the fact that, as I said
19 before, she wanted me to be able to tell her at any
20 given time where each person was in the clerical pool,
21 and again, they had a tendency, many of them,
22 wandering around, being in the hallway, being on
23 different floors and not doing their work, and she
24 wanted to, you know, make sure that I knew at any
25 given time where they were, any of these various
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1 people and again, I was to be at my desk at each
2 morning when everybody signed on the sign-in sheet.
3 She was fixated that I should be sitting there when
4 everybody signed in. That was another thing that she
5 was also fixated about.
6 Q You were responsible for the sign-in sheet?
7 A Yes, I was.
8 Q Who told you that you were responsible for
9 the sign-in sheet?
10 A Ms. Grant.
11 Q And the sign-in sheet rested on your desk?
12 A Yes, it did.
13 Q Did you know why Ms. Grant wanted you there
14 when each employee signed in?
15 A She wanted me to make sure that they signed
16 in at the time that they arrived; that they did not
17 say, for example, if a person was to start work at
18 nine o'clock, she didn't want a situation where they
19 came in at 9:15 and wrote nine o'clock, which people
20 would try to do from time to time.
21 Q She wanted you to supervise the sign-in
22 sheet to make sure that did not happen?
23 A Right. That's what she told me.
24 Q Continuing with this list, was there
25 anything else that she told you about your
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1 responsibilities as supervisory applications clerk?
2 A Not that I can think of offhand. I'm sure
3 more will come out -- come up. I'm sorry.
4 Q Were you responsible for, aside from the
5 sign-in sheet, were you responsible for employee time
6 sheets?
7 A That's what that was. Those were the time
8 sheets.
9 Q Would employees sign out on those sheets as
10 well?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did Ms. Grant want you to supervise their
13 signing out as well?
14 A Not as much as their signing in. There was
15 a particular individual, a Sean Davis, who, I believe,
16 came in -- was to come in every morning from 8:30
17 until, you know, five. Rather, often times he would
18 be coming in 8:30 and he would come in quarter to nine
19 and, basically, as I recall the way the sign-in sheets
20 were set up, it would be according to increments of
21 every 15 minutes. Okay. The idea was to sign in
22 exactly when you came in. Mr. Davis, as well as other
23 individuals, but he does come to mind, would sign in
24 around, excuse me, 8:45. He would sign in at 8:30.
25 Sometimes he would not come in at all.
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1 Q Were you responsible for answering anyone's
2 telephone?
3 A I was responsible for answering the phone
4 on my desk.
5 Q Would you take messages for people and
6 convey the messages?
7 A It depended on who they were looking for.
8 Sometimes calls would come in and say it would be, for
9 example, for Ms. Grant or Ms. MacPherson, and later on
10 for Ms. Agatha Stewart, although, I believe, she was
11 on the eighth floor. So I would take messages.
12 Q Aside from the people that you just
13 mentioned, did you take messages for anyone else?
14 A Not that I recall, but I may have.
15 Q Were you responsible for the annual leave
16 and sick leave records for the employees?
17 A Yes, I was.
18 Q Who told you that you were responsible for
19 those records?
20 A Ms. Grant. I believe this was Ms. Grant.
21 Q What did she tell you about your
22 responsibilities with regard to annual leave and sick
23 leave records?
24 A These are vague questions. If you could be
25 more specific.
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1 Q How did Ms. Grant communicated to you what
2 your day-to-day responsibilities were with respect to
3 annual leave and sick leave records?
4 A Basically, the idea of a person taking time
5 off, it would be according to how much time they had
6 accrued, how much sick time, annual leave, annual sick
7 leave, annual leave, that sort of thing.
8 Q Did you keep track of the time that each of
9 your employees had accrued?
10 A I believe we had a list of how much they
11 had taken and how much they had accrued.
12 Q What exactly were your responsibilities
13 with respect to the maintenance of this list?
14 A To make sure that if a person was taking
15 annual leave that they had that annual leave
16 available.
17 Q What about their scheduling of annual
18 leave, would that go through you?
19 A That would go through me.
20 Q If an employee who you supervised wanted
21 annual leave, what would they do?
22 A They could come to me and tell me that they
23 wanted to take such and such a day and such and such a
24 week, and I would check to see if they had that annual
25 leave accrued.
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1 Q Did your decision about denying or
2 approving annual leave have to be approved by any of
3 your supervisors?
4 A I think eventually, first, it would be
5 approved by me and then it would be approved by
6 Ms. Grant.
7 Q Did you ever report directly to
8 Ms. MacPherson?
9 A I may have, initially.
10 Q When you say "initially," do you know for
11 what period of time?
12 A When I had first started. You have to
13 understand the situation in Section 245. It is so
14 incredibly fluid that often times it was hard to
15 determine who was to be reported to for what purpose.
16 Q Did you ever have an understanding that you
17 were to report to Ms. Grant with respect to certain
18 responsibilities and someone else with respect to
19 other responsibilities?
20 A The idea was I was to report directly to
21 Ms. Grant. But, then again, often times it was a
22 situation where if she was not available then I could
23 go to Ms. MacPherson. Again, it was very fluid.
24 Q Did Ms. MacPherson ever describe to you
25 what she expected of you in your position as
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1 supervisory applications clerk?
2 A Not that I can recall.
3 Q Am I right that there came a time that Miss
4 Stewart replaced Ms. Grant as your first-line
5 supervisor?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When was that?
8 A I believe that was early 1996 she became my
9 first-line supervisor.
10 Q Did you continue to have some reporting
11 relationship to Ms. Grant after Ms. Stewart became
12 your first-line supervisor?
13 A I believe at that time she became my
14 second-line supervisor, but I would report to
15 Ms. Stewart first.
16 Q During the period of time when Ms. Stewart
17 was your first-line supervisor, what was
18 Ms. MacPherson's position?
19 A I believe she was a third-line supervisor.
20 Q During the period after Ms. Stewart's
21 became your first-line supervisor, did you ever report
22 to Ms. MacPherson?
23 A Well, you mean directly?
24 Q Yes, directly.
25 A I don't believe so because, again,
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1 Ms. Stewart in early 1996 became my first-line
2 supervisor.
3 Q Before Ms. Stewart became your first-line
4 supervisor, did you ever have occasion to work with
5 her?
6 A Not really. I mean, I would see her, of
7 course, but I didn't really work with her.
8 Q Do you know what her position was before
9 she became your first-line supervisor?
10 A She was district administrative officer,
11 but they were referred to as a DAO.
12 Q When she became your first-line supervisor,
13 what was her position then?
14 A I believe it was senior DAO.
15 Q Did Ms. Stewart ever have a conversation
16 with you about what she expected of you as supervisory
17 applications clerk?
18 A Ms. Stewart was very big on yelling. She
19 was very big on telling me to shut up when I would ask
20 her questions.
21 Q Did she ever communicate to you what she
22 expected of you in your position as supervisory
23 applications clerk?
24 A Not really.
25 Q When she replaced Ms. Grant as your
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1 first-line supervisor, did you understand what was
2 expected of you to essentially remain the same?
3 A I'm sorry?
4 Q Did you understand Ms. Stewart's
5 expectations of you to be the same as those of
6 Ms. Grant?
7 A We never had a conversation where she
8 expressed expectations one way or the other.
9 Q Did you have any conversation with
10 Ms. Filbert about what you expected of her in her
11 capacity as lead clerk?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Would you have such conversations often?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How often?
16 A Every other day, practically.
17 Q What were the issues that you would discuss
18 in these conversations?
19 A Basically, the problem was that -- you are
20 referring to Ms. Filbert; is that correct?
21 Q Correct.
22 A She would sit and she would not get up.
23 She would not assist me as far as passing out work to
24 the clerical staff as well as the typists. She would
25 sit behind her desk which was piled with folders, and
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1 she would yell and scream, actually, literally, yell
2 and scream at the clerical pool, and she would yell
3 and scream at me which -- that was a mistake on her
4 part because I remember one day we had a very heated
5 exchange. I will not -- I do not yell and scream at
6 people. Period. I have never yelled and screamed at
7 people that I supervise, let alone people that I work
8 with. It's very unprofessional. It's not the type of
9 thing that you get away with in private industry, and
10 it should not occur in the workplace. We had this
11 heated exchange initiated by Ms. Filbert and,
12 interesting enough, the clerical pool suddenly became
13 quiet. There was no conversation at all, dead
14 silence, and she finally stopped. I said, "You have
15 to help me. I can't do this by myself. I can't pass
16 all this work out by myself." Then after that she
17 went to Ms. Grant, ran into Ms. Grant's office
18 sitting, talking, gossiping, which she did every
19 morning anyway from the hours of 8:30 until nine
20 o'clock because Ms. Filbert started at nine o'clock.
21 She was always, in my experience there, she was always
22 running to Ms. Grant reporting on everything that had
23 happened. She was known as basically Ms. Grant's
24 toady, for lack of a better word. She would come into
25 work a half hour early to talk to Ms. Grant before her
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1 workday started.
2 Q A half hour early?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Aside from this heated exchange that you
5 referred to, in the heated exchange did you tell her
6 not to yell at you?
7 A Yes, I did. I told her You are here as the
8 lead clerk to assist me. You are really second in
9 command here, to use a military term, and basically
10 just to make sure that everyone has work to do. It's
11 not the responsibility of the supervisory applications
12 clerk to do it all on his or her own, and she replied
13 by yelling and screaming "I have all this work. Look
14 at the work on my desk," and as I said before, the
15 conversations stopped, dead silence, in the workplace,
16 and everyone was watching us because everyone in the
17 clerical pool on the tenth floor, they treated her
18 like a joke. They did not take her seriously.
19 Ms. Filbert, Dolores Filbert had told me to get them
20 to do anything -- to get them to do anything, you have
21 to yell at them, and I said before I don't yell at
22 people. This not the way I conducted business. This
23 is not acceptable.
24 Q Because of her demeanor she was not an
25 effective lead clerk?
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1 A No, she was not.
2 Q Aside from the heated exchange that you had
3 mentioned earlier, what other communication did you
4 have with her to convey your dissatisfaction about the
5 way she was performing her duties?
6 A That was the main one, and if I ever asked
7 if any files were done, she would ignore me or she
8 would walk away or she would go into Ms. Grant's
9 office and she would come running out and start
10 yelling at me. Ms. Grant would come running out.
11 Q During the entire period of your employment
12 at I.N.S., was the relationship between you and
13 Ms. Filbert consistently strained in that way or did
14 it sometimes improve and then sometimes get worse
15 again.
16 A Improve to what? You know, really, what?
17 It was always very tense. It was always very tense.
18 She was always running to Ms. Grant and giving
19 Ms. Grant reports.
20 Q What was she reporting to Ms. Grant about?
21 A I do not know, but I do know after she
22 would go into Ms. Grant's office that Ms. Grant would
23 often times come running out and start yelling at me
24 or on the other hand Ms. Grant would ignore me if I
25 asked a question and tell me "You should know that.
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1 You should know that." And that was very early on.
2 Q When Ms. Grant would come out and yell at
3 you, what was she yelling at you about?
4 A Often times it was incoherent.
5 Q Were there occasions that you did
6 understand what she was yelling about?
7 A She didn't make herself clear. She didn't
8 make herself plain.
9 Q You mentioned distributing the work.
10 As a practical matter, how did the work get
11 distributed?
12 A That was difficult because there were files
13 that had to be done. It was a situation where this
14 had to be distributed to everyone and the idea was to
15 basically distribute work for the first shift coming
16 in, and I would often times get in before 7:30 so I
17 would have the work distributed, and I would have the
18 work waiting for him or her on their desk. There was
19 carts to put the work in, so I would be able to push
20 around over the floor. But that was difficult because
21 often times there was no carts available and that was
22 also during the day, and if there was a cart available
23 it wasn't available because it was filled with files
24 that couldn't be touched because it was used for
25 something else. In a nutshell, Ms. Grant didn't
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1 provide me with a cart that would be able to
2 distribute the files or anyone else. This is an area
3 where Ms. Filbert as lead clerk was to assist me and
4 she did not. She sat at her desk and she ate
5 crackers, soda and whatever, and basically did her own
6 work or did not do her own work.
7 Q The employees to whom you had to distribute
8 work, where were they located?
9 A They were on the tenth floor.
10 Q Is that where you were, as well?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How large was the area over which the files
13 had to be distributed?
14 A As far as spacewise?
15 Q As best you can describe it.
16 A Yeah. Well, I'm not good with mathematical
17 dimensions here, but I would assume that could be
18 anywhere from, I don't know, maybe 15 feet by 30 feet.
19 It was a huge floor.
20 Q Were these files being distributed
21 continuously throughout the day or was there certain
22 shift, certain periods, during which they were
23 distributed?
24 A Continually throughout day as the work was
25 completed.
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1 Q You mentioned this intensive effort to get
2 work distributed in time for the first shift; is that
3 right?
4 A I'm sorry. Could you --
5 Q You mentioned that you would come in early
6 in order to get the work distributed; is that right?
7 A Right, the file on people's desks.
8 Q What exactly were you trying to
9 accomplished?
10 A To make sure when people came in the first
11 shift they had work to start on.
12 Q Were you coming in to make sure that each
13 and every employee had a file to work on?
14 A Files. Work with more than one, yes.
15 Q When or if an employee finished the files
16 that you put on their desk during the course of the
17 day, what would they then do?
18 A They would ask for more work, more files.
19 Q You would provide the files to them?
20 A Yes, or it also was the responsibility of
21 the lead clerk.
22 Q Would Ms. Filbert also provide files to
23 them?
24 A Usually not. Usually no.
25 Q Were there occasions that you asked
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1 Ms. Filbert to deliver files to specific clerks and
2 she refused?
3 A Yes.
4 Q How many such instances?
5 A Several. Several.
6 Q Was Ms. Filbert also responsible for
7 assisting you in distributing files to employees who
8 were coming in for the first shift in the morning?
9 A She wasn't there then.
10 Q That's because she did not start work until