July 31, 2000... The US Attorney Deposes Caryl Leventhal's husband, Lieutenant Colonel Michael G. Leventhal. Deposition in its Entirety
Photo taken in Camp Smith, NY Bldg 24 during training exercises (Flag added as replacement for actual HQ background).
Michael Leventhal is a computer specialist, published author and a reserve military officer holding the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He received a decoration during Desert Storm and in 1998, was decorated for bravery (while in uniform) when he saved the life of a civilian at a homicide scene. After September 11, 2001 LTC Leventhal will be placed on active duty to protect the American people from the terrorism brought on by the terrorist friendly actions of the US Department of Justice Immigration and Naturalization Service.
During the Administrative Process conflict with USDOJ/INS from September 1996 until October 1999, LTC Leventhal fought his wife Caryl's legal battles alone. He is not an attorney. This was done within an environment of crank calls, and a recorded death threat by the US Department of Justice that the Leventhals either drop the process or be taken care of, "Nazi style." Subsequently, Alan R. Kaufman Chief of the US Attorney's Office Criminal Division (through Ms. Leventhal's Attorney) will threaten arrest and prosecution if this website isn't censored).
Caryl Leventhal was one of the first US Department of Justice Immigration and Naturalization Service whistleblowers to the type of terrorist friendly corruption and indolence endemic in the USDOJ Immigration and Naturalization Service that will subsequently lead to the death of thousands in America. This includes the selling of Green Cards (permanent visas) at INS 26 Federal Plaza NYC and issuing of visas without proper background checks. Thanks to the way laws are structured in America, this can not be a bases of her suit. On the other hand, it was the prime motivating reason for employees within the US Department of Justice to want Caryl Leventhal out and replaced by someone more amenable to criminal and indolent behavior. These concerns and obstructionism in the internal USDOJ INS Administrative Complaint Process motivated Ms. Leventhal to bring her suit to court. She hopes to get testimony to these abuses before it is too late. Some of this can be found in the deposition of Brenda Grant.
(NOTE: There are numerous although minor technical errors in this deposition. At times, Mr. Leventhal spoke quickly and emotionally. Words were picked up incorrectly although they do not appear to create ambiguity as to his responses. Some have correction notations for clarity. Others will be corrected as the deposition is reviewed.)
1 APPEARANCES: 2 LAW OFFICES OF 3 MICHAEL R. DRESSLER, ESQ. Attorney for Plaintiff 4 36 West 44th Street New York, New York 10036 5 BY: LILA AYERS, ESQ. 6 7 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 8 UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS OFFICE Attorney for Defendant 9 100 Church Street New York, New York 10007 10 BY: ERIC B. FISHER, ESQ. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 KLEVENTHAL
1 M I C H A E L L E V E N T H A L , a 2 Non-Party Witness herein, having first been 3 duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined 4 and testified as follows 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. FISHER: 6 Q. What is your name? 7 A. Michael Leventhal. 8 Q. Where do you reside? 9 A. --- ---- -----, Brooklyn, New York 10 11215-3046. 11 Q. Good morning. My name is Eric Fisher. I 12 am an Assistant United States attorney that 13 represents the defendant in this case. I am 14 going to ask you a number of questions today. 15 If, at any time, you don't understand the 16 question as I put it to you, let me know. I 17 will be happy to rephrase my question to make 18 myself understood. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Let me finish my question before you 21 provide your answer so the court reporter can 22 take down everything that we say. If, at any 23 time today you need to take a break, let me 24 know. I will be happy to take a break. 25 A. Okay.
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Q. Is there any condition that you are aware of that would in any way interfere with your ability to give complete and accurate testimony today?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Leventhal, are you currently employed?
Q. And where are you currently employed? A. The A----------- -- --- --- -- --- ---- -- --.
Q. And what is your position there? A. I am the technology resource manager. Q. And how long have you worked at ---------?
A. It will be 4 years on September 3rd. Q. And where did you work before ---------?
A. I had my own business. I worked for Intercontinental Data Management.
Q. Did you own that business?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And how many employees did you have? A. Myself and Caryl Leventhal up until, I guess, 1991. Then, it was me.
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1 Q. Did you continue in the business on your 2 own after 1991? 3 A. Oh, yes. 4 Q. Until when? 5 A. Until June of -- well, until Caryl got 6 sick. June of 1996, I believe, when I stayed 7 with her. 8 Q. And what happened to the business in June 9 of 1996? 10 A. Well, it is a partnership that went 11 dormant. 12 Q. And what was the purpose of the business? 13 A. It originally started out as an executive 14 recruitment firm for Programmers Assistant 15 Analysts ["Systems Analysts"]. It was more into one of technology 16 training, development of course, material 17 curriculum design, training and then, went into 18 computer consulting, hardware, software 19 evaluation, recommending to various companies 20 how they could meet their technology need or 21 efficiency as well as meeting their 22 requirements with minimum cost. 23 Q. And you referred to June of 1996 when you 24 said that Caryl got sick. Did you stop working 25 in order to care for her at that time? VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 M. LEVENTHAL
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And for what period of time did you stop 3 working to care for her? 4 A. Until September 3rd. Although I might 5 add that I knew at that point that I would have 6 to get what might be called a nine to five job 7 because even now I do the cooking and the 8 cleaning and whatever is necessary to be done 9 after I come home from work. 10 Q. When in the year 2000 did you start your 11 job at the ----- ----? When did you start your 12 job at the ----- -------? 13 A. Oh, September 3, 1996. 14 Q. Thank you. Were you employed before 15 Intercontinental Data Management? 16 A. We are going back into the 1970s because 17 Intercontinental was formed as a partnership in 18 1980 or 1981. 19 Q. So was your full-time employment from 20 1980 or 1981 until 1996 with Intercontinental? 21 A. Sure. I may have done little things here 22 and there. It was insignificant. 23 Q. Are you a member of the military? 24 A. Yes, I am, sir. 25 Q. How long have you been a member of the
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1 military? 2 A. For 10 years now. 3 Q. And what is your current status in the 4 military? 5 A. It is a state command. I hold the rank 6 of lieutenant colonel. I am stationed at the 7 army [S/B Armory] on Park Avenue and 63rd Street. That is 8 the Seventh Regiment Armory. 9 Q. Have you ever received any recognition or 10 other awards from the military? 11 A. Many. Many. 12 Q. What are they? 13 A. All right. I was decorated for bravery 14 in April. The decoration that I received was 15 in May of 1998 for something that happened in 16 March of 1998. I was decorated for bravery for 17 saving the life of somebody at a homicide scene 18 while in uniform. 19 Q. How did you save that person's life? 20 A. Well, myself -- it was a Sunday, and we 21 normally have our monthly drill in one of our 22 armories. In this case, several of us were 23 invited and received approval to be able to 24 attend a cell trailer that our command sergeant 25 major was holding. It was to celebrate 4 years [S/B 40]
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1 in the military. It was in a church in 2 Harlem. It was an entering celebration. After 3 that, we celebrated. He gave, and I considered 4 myself to be honored, he gave myself and a few 5 other people also little gifts or tokens of 6 appreciation for what we had done working with 7 him all the years. In fact, I learned more 8 from him than he had ever learned from me. 9 Q. How did you save this person's life? 10 A. I want to provide the background In any 11 event, we were riding home from Harlem, myself, 12 two of my sergeants and we were on the 13 Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. It was a Sunday, 14 and everybody was speeding fast. All of a 15 sudden, we see in the middle of the highway and 16 not on the side of the highway, in the middle 17 of the highway, two bodies lying there. 18 Immediately, we pulled up, we ran out, one of 19 my sergeants, a very brave man, went to the top 20 of a hill on the highway and risked his life 21 standing in the middle of oncoming traffic to 22 ward off the cars. My other sergeant that was 23 an EMS man got his EMS material. He and I 24 walked over to the first person who was 25 obviously dead, very badly mangled. We then VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 9
1 went over to the second person, and I had 2 noticed that there were some people on the 3 side. I went to the people on the side to find 4 out if EMS was called while my man started 5 right in the middle of the highway with cars 6 almost running him over and checking the person 7 out. We made sure an ambulance was called. A 8 police car pulled up, but the policeman cowered 9 inside of his car right by the side of the 10 read [S/B "road"]. He wouldn't come into the oncoming 11 traffic. I ran over to the EMS man. While the 12 EMS man was checking him for broken bones in 13 the middle of the highway, I shielded him with 14 my body kneeling in a pool of blood and holding 15 his bleeding head, got whatever information I 16 could from him, and for fifteen minutes until 17 the fire department and EMS came, we shielded 18 him, and the EMS came, took him away, didn't 19 have to check him out because he was already 20 prepped, and that was primarily -- he lived. 21 He survived. Had anything happened to him, I 22 probably would have been court-martialed for 23 doing something without orders. You don't 24 think about this when someone's life is at 25 stake. I received a medal in 1995 [S/B 1996] during the
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10 M. LEVENTHAL
1 storms [This was during the storms and floods of
Winter 1996. Michael Leventhal was on active duty,
working in the Emergency Operations Center at
Camp Smith NY, ensuring integrity of the technology
needed in the NY State rescue effort]. 2 Q. For now, I want you to list the various 3 decorations. 4 A. Military commendation medal for work 5 during the Desert Storm, I guess, in 1991. I 6 got the state merit [Meritorious] service metal. There are a 7 lot of others. I forget. 8 Q. Would you briefly state for me your 9 educational background? 10 A. I have a bachelors degree from Hunter 11 College that I earned going at night and worked 12 my way through. 13 Q. And what was your major at Hunter 14 College? 15 A. My major was economics, my minor was 16 psychology or maybe it was reversed. I don't 17 remember after all of these years. 18 Q. Are you currently married to Caryl 19 Leventhal, the plaintiff in this case? 20 A. Lovingly so. 21 Q. And how long have you been married to 22 Mrs. Leventhal? 23 A. We were married on Valentine's Day, 24 February 14th. I believe it was in 1982, but 25 it seems like six months. I feel like I am VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 11
1 still on my honeymoon. 2 Q. And were you married before you were 3 married to Mrs. Leventhal? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When did that marriage come to an end? 6 A. In 1979 or 1980. It was 1980, I think. 7 Q. What was your first wife's name? 8 A. Patricia. 9 Q. And her family name? 10 A. Cody. 11 Q. And how did that marriage come to an end? 12 A. In fact, I married her because she became 13 pregnant. I wanted to do the right thing. We 14 stayed together for 2 and a half years in 15 marriage, and when we felt David was old 16 enough, which was 2 and a half years, we 17 separated. We had joint custody, though, from 18 the time that he was about 4 and a half or 5 19 years. He stayed with me 90 percent of the 20 time. 21 Q. Your son's name is David? 22 A . Yes. 23 Q. And is that your only -- is he your only 24 child? 25 A. Sir, I have a previous child from a much,
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1 much earlier marriage. His name is Marc 2 M-A-R-C. We were married when we were very 3 young. He was autistic. The pressure of 4 autism on the family just broke it up. 5 Q. Are you still in contact with Marc? 6 A. I haven't been for a few years. He is an 7 adult now. I think he is older than you. It 8 happened a long time ago. For many years, I 9 was very actively involved. He is in an 10 institution now. I was very actively involved 11 in taking care of him and providing support and 12 what have you. 13 Q. Are you in contact with David? 14 A. I haven't been in contact with David for 15 a few years. In his late teens, he dropped out 16 of school and disappeared. About six months 17 after, he started living with his biological 18 mother. 19 Q. And does he currently live with his 20 biological mother? 21 A. No. No. He dropped out of school and 22 left. I know he is okay because I lived where 23 I do for many years since before he was born. 24 I know his friends. His friends say that he 25 asks about Caryl and me. To be perfectly VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 13
1 straight with you, one reason why I haven't 2 followed over the past few years is because I 3 felt given what was going on with the United 4 States Department of Justice and INS and having 5 our lives threatened, he would be better 6 staying out of a very ugly situation. 7 Q. Did David ever live with you and Caryl 8 for any period of time? 9 A. Most of the time. 10 Q. During what-years did he live with you 11 and Caryl? 12 A. He lived half the time with Caryl and 13 myself from the time he was -- I may be getting 14 chronologically off a little a year or two - 15 up until he was about -- from two and a half to 16 five. The time was split fifty percent between 17 my former wife and myself and that ended when I 18 saw him with a big bruise on his head. She had 19 smashed has head against the wall a few times. 20 They found out about it at the school, and Pat 21 just said she is not a maternal person. She 22 said "well, you take him" which was fine with 23 me. That was great. I raised him from the 24 time he was 5 or 6 until 17 and a half. Oh, 25 no. No. Shortly after he reached puberty of VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 14
1 13 or 14, my former wife had remarried,
2 and they had bought a brownstone. We all lived in
3 the same neighborhood. We were going through
4 that stage of David you have to do your
5 homework, you are not going out until your
6 homework is done. 7 Pat who tended to view him more as a
8 possession and a symbol of victory, promised
9 him his own room, $25 a week, and he could do
10 anything that he wants. Well, one thing leads
11 to another. He left and dropped out of
12 school. To a kid, that was a nifty
13 arrangement. 14 Q. And you testified that you haven't seen
15 or rather that David did not come and visit you
16 because you are in a dangerous situation? 17 A. Yes. Not until this is over with. 18 Q. When was the last time that you spoke
19 with David over telephone?
20 A. Probably 18 years old. This was a few
21 years ago. I hear what is going on from his
22 friends. [May I] add something, sir? 23 Certainly. If it is in response to the
25 A. Yes. It is responsive of why David is
(516) 608-2400 M. LEVENTHAL
1 not approached although he will be after this 2 is over whenever it ends. Since 1998, since 3 our death threat of April 26th -- may I 4 finish? 5 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you. 6 For the sake of the record, why is it 7 that you feel that you are now in a dangerous 8 situation? 9 A. The advent ["Admin"] process beginning in September 10 of 1996, the INS EEO process was very ugly. It 11 was obvious that they wanted to kill this 12 case. I could provide all of the documentation 13 and instances of how they refused to accept any 14 of the basis of 2 years of fighting because 15 they felt that anti-white racism leveled 16 against the people who were black or affiliated 17 with the black community through marriage was 18 something that was too hot to handle, if you 19 will. After the affidavits in November of 1997 20 or when they began, we started to get crank 21 phone calls. This went on for months. Very 22 similar to the fact and I am not accusing 23 anything to the fact that when Brenda Grant 24 began her deposition one day before, we 25 received seventeen hang-ups. We received vERITExT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400
1 hang-ups for a few days after that. It just 2 stopped. Then again,it could have been 3 telemarketers. I don't know. In any event, 4 after the months of crank calls, we got a death 5 threat on April 26th at 1:30 in the morning. 6 That went something o the effect - 7 Q. Of what year? 8 A. 1998. That we something to the effect 9 of -- we have it on tape --"You don't know when 10 to give up you fuckin' Jew.- - You and your loony 11 wife, we are going to get you Nazi style." 12 Then, they started to go into the whole thing 13 of Prozac, you are going to get the full 800 14 milligrams, which I found out is the probable 15 beginning of a fatal dose. I would like to add 16 unstoppingly so, if I might, sir, that I sent a 17 certified letter to Larry Zief, the deputy 18 regional counsel for the Immigration and 19 Naturalization Service telling him about this. 20 Larry Zief called me up and in a very 21 mechanical way said, "The US Department of 22 Justice doesn't sanction this type of 23 behavior." My response to Mr. Zief was,"Larry, 24 I know what these people are thinking, middle 25 age, urban, Jewish, punkie, but you better get VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 17
1 on the horn to 26 Federal Plaza and stop them 2 from upsetting my wife because if they go any 3 further and get within legal range, I am going 4 to shoot them." He did not respond, but I can 5 tell you within a few days, everything stopped.
|Note: As part of the gang of USDOJ enablers of the terrorism that murders 3,000 innocent Americans on September 11th 2001, Laurence M. Zieff is subsequently made Assistant Regional Counsel for the new Department (Agency) of Homeland Security You can find him at 70 Kimball Avenue, Room 103 South Burlington, Vermont|
6 Q. The crank calls that you received and 7 leaving aside the death threat phone call, did 8 anyone speak during those crank calls or were 9 they hang-ups? 10 A. We always keep -- we are private people. 11 We have few friends, we have two telephones 12 that are unlisted, we are very wrapped up with 13 each other. We always have been, and we also 14 have answering machines on. There were calls 15 and hang-ups. When Caryl would pick up the 16 telephone, there would be either a hang-up or 17 guttural grunting. 18 Q. So aside from hang-ups or guttural 19 grunting, did anyone ever say anything that 20 either you or Mrs. Leventhal can make out? 21 A. They never called up and said that they 22 are from the Department of Justice. 23 Q. I understand that you -- you referred to 24 the death threat that there was actually 25 something said. On any of the other calls, was
VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 18 M. LEVENTHAL 1 there anything said? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And the death threat phone call, the 4 April 26, 1998, who do you suspect made that 5 phone call? 6 A. I think and it is purely speculation, 7 that it was one of the people called as 8 witnesses that have been deposed by Caryl 9 Leventhal that got one of their jerky friends 10 to call up-and say, let's scare them, let's 11 scare the Jews. Let's get them to stop this. 12 I know how to do it. I will take care of it. 13 Q. When you referred to the people - 14 A. If I may interrupt. What bothers me more 15 than anything else is because I am a gun owner, 16 what bothers me more than anything else is that 17 the United States Department of Justice through 18 INS didn't give a damn. For 2 and a half 19 years, nobody cared because their attitude I am 20 convinced was if this will get them to drop 21 this case, good. 22 Q. Earlier, you testified that you suspect 23 that people who were deposed as witnesses by 24 Mrs. Leventhal may have involved their friends 25 or acquaintances in making these calls.
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. At the time leading up to April 26, 1998, 3 who had Mrs. Leventhal deposed as witnesses? 4 A. No. What I mean is the people that were 5 claimed that were mentioned in Caryl's EEO 6 complaint. That was Brenda Grant and Agatha 7 Stewart and, of course, you had the people 8 guilty of omission, Gwen McPherson and Edward 9 McElroy. Could I be sued if I say something in 10 a deposition?-. The two prime witnesses that 11 were deposed by Caryl's attorney I think was a 12 friend of one of them. 13 Q. When you say "the two prime witnesses," 14 you are referring to Brenda Grant and Agatha 15 Stewart? 16 A. That said. 17 Q. Is that your testimony, do you suspect it 18 was either one of those two women or one of 19 their friends or acquaintances? 20 A. I think it was one of their friends or 21 acquaintances. 22 Q. Was it a man or a woman whose voice you 23 heard? 24 A. A man with a Bensonhurst, Brooklyn 25 accent. Not that I am pointing fingers at VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 20
1 anybody certainly not from Bensonhurst. It is 2 a nice place. 3 Q. At the previous deposition, I ask to be 4 provided with a copy of the tape. So I will 5 make that request again on the record. 6 Do you still have this answering machine 7 tape? 8 A. Locked in a safe. 9 Q. I ask that a recording be made for me and 10 provided. 11 A. May I ask you a question? Is it two-way 12 or just one question? 13 Q. Go ahead and ask the question. 14 A. Thank you. 15 Q. I may not answer your question. 16 A. I understand that. I understand that. 17 When Caryl told me that you wanted the 18 tape, my response was, "After 2 and a half 19 years they didn't care about your safety. Now, 20 they only care to try to see if they could keep 21 it from testimony at the trial." Is that really 22 what this is for, just to keep it from 23 testimony at the trial or is this truly a 24 search for the truth? 25 Mr. Leventhal, I won't answer the 21
1 question. 2 A. Thank you, sir. 3 Q. You have many venues for publicizing your 4 case and editorializing about it. 5 A. Thank you, sir. 6 Q. You referred to documentation relating to 7 the EEO process. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Has all of that documentation -- have 10 copies of all of that documentation that is in 11 your possession, custody or control, been 12 provided in the course of this litigation? 13 A. I believe so. The only things I don't 14 believe I sent you were some of the letters 15 from Larry Zief or from the absolutely 16 admirable judge at US EEO, William McCauley. I 17 thought that you had that. 18 Q. I ask that any documents that you do have 19 in your possession that relate in any way to 20 this lawsuit in the EEO process be provided. 21 A. All right, sir. 22 Q. When was it that Mrs. Leventhal was first 23 diagnosed with multiple sclerosis? 24 A. I believe it was January of 1992. 25 Q. You sound unsure of the month?
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M. LEVENTHAT .
1 A. I believe she came to me and she said, "I 2 am blind in one eye and it hurts like hell." 3 She still continues going to work. It was, I 4 believe, a new job. She would work holding one 5 eye. We went to an eye doctor and then to a 6 neurologist who told her that it would either 7 be Lyme disease or a sign of multiple 8 sclerosis, and Caryl, not being a doctor, said 9 that I hope it not be Lyme disease because I 10 know what multiple sclerosis was about. She 11 got an MRI, and it was multiple sclerosis. 12 Q. And who was the neurologist who first
13 diagnosed her with multiple sclerosis? 14 A. A Dr. Untericht. 15 Q . Aside from the visit where 16 Dr. Untericht diagnosed Mrs. Leventhal with MS, 17 do you know whether Mrs. Leventhal continued to 18 see Dr. Untericht for treatment? 19 A. We -- there is no treatment. There is no 20 treatment and no cure. I have been following 21 this for years. Whatever quote treatment is 22 done for people that are in desperate straits, 23 it usually doesn't work, and they have terrible 24 side effects. If you want, I could run off a 25 litany of medications and refer you to the
1 neurologist and the magazines of the American 2 Neurological Association. 3 Q. Perhaps, I mis-spoke (sic). Did 4 Mrs. Leventhal continue to see Dr. Untericht 5 with respect to her multiple sclerosis? 6 A. No. He wanted to see her. I am a very 7 direct person as I think that you may have 8 gathered. I asked Dr. Untericht and I said, 9 "Doctor, you are bringing her here, you are 10 taking your optical photos, and you are writing 11 things up for any book that you may have come 12 up with for multiple sclerosis. There is no 13 treatment or cure, is there?" He said no. I 14 said, "We will be seeing you." I did a lot 15 of reading, and I came up with a diet, a 16 nutritional diet, food preparation, and within 17 a relatively short period of months, she came 18 out of it. She has been on the diet ever 19 since. Except with the two exacerbations of MS 20 at INS, she has never had an exacerbation. 21 Q. Do you know how many visits she had with 22 Dr. Untericht? 23 Three or four. 24 And aside from Dr. Untericht, did you see 25 any other doctors in connection with her
1 multiple sclerosis? 2 A. Well, a Dr. Poon who became her family 3 doctor. Again, I may be a year off or 4 something like that. My apologies for that. 5 My apologies for that. It was in 1993 or 1992. 6 Q. Mr. Leventhal, we will have a paper 7 record. Mr. Leventhal, you said 1993. Are you 8 not sure? 9 A. Caryl's deposition gave the proper dates 10 for everything. 11 Q. I am not relying on you for the dates. 12 A. Please don't. Dr. Poon was recommended 13 as a very good empathic doctor from the person 14 that was then Caryl's gynecologist because 15 Caryl was going in, I believe, at that time for 16 surgery on fibroid tumors unrelated to multiple 17 sclerosis. We met Dr. Poon, and he has been 18 more or less overseeing things. Neither Caryl 19 or I are what you call, and Dr. Poon knows 20 this, doctor people in quotes. We don't run to 21 doctors all the time just like we don't run to 22 lawyers all the time. He is just very good. 23 He is caring and he has a MD in anatomy. He is 24 a former researcher always interested in 25 neurology and what have you and provides VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 25
1 really, you know, good help and advice, 2 although, he like I are not believers in 3 stuffing people with chemistry unless they need 4 it. There is another doctor, too. 5 Q. Aside from Dr. Untericht and 6 Dr. Poon, who else has Mrs. Leventhal visited 7 in connection with her multiple sclerosis? 8 A. In 1996 or probably late August of 1996 9 and after she was terminated from INS while 10 home critically i11 without warning-, Dr. Poon 11 said to have a neurologist check her out. I 12 asked why. He said -- I want to think this 13 out. It was really very funny. He said "I 14 don't have a degree in neurology." I said, "Do 15 you think that he will find something?" He 16 said, "No. At least that you will have a 17 neurologist checking her out." She was very 18 depressed. 19 Q. In August of 1996? 20 A. Give or take a month. We went to a 21 doctor -- gee, I forgot his name. He is in 22 Caryl's deposition. We went there, and he did 23 the standard neurologist thing, lift up this 24 hand and lift up that hand. As his response 25 was, "Well, you have got multiple sclerosis." I VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 27
1 A. No. 2 Q. You testified that this diet that you 3 helped to devise you believe that has helped to 4 alleviate Mrs. Leventhal's multiple sclerosis. 5 How did you come up with this diet? 6 A. I did a lot of research on MS, and about 7 9 years ago, I came up with a view that is now 8 currently accepted although it was not opted 9 then that is an autoimmune disease where the 10 body's, immunilogical system turns upon itself, 11 and I designed a diet. It was nothing radical 12 or scary food preparation. I happen to be a 13 good cook, vitamins. Again, nothing they can't 14 get in a vitamin store to more or less help and 15 maintain that balanced level. As a matter of 16 fact, I wrote a book about it and I sent it to 17 a couple of publishers but you need a doctor to 18 sign off on it and they will publish it. My 19 response was to forget it. 20 Q. Have you ever published any books? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What you have published? 23 A. Technology books have been published by 24 Macmillan Publishers and Prentice Hall and 25 how-to books. I began the whole concept of vERITExT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 28
1 non-complicated how-to books. 2 Q. What are the titles of the books? 3 A. MS DOS Quick Start, The Second Edition. 4 I did work on several other books for Prentice 5 Hall. They basically took that work, gave it 6 to an in-house person to save money. I 7 complained. On my own, I never contacted a 8 lawyer, and I spoke to their corporate counsel. 9 Q. Just the titles. 10 A. There was MS DOS 5. I haven't written 11 anything since probably 1993. 12 Q. In 1992 when Mrs. Leventhal was first 13 diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, did she 14 exhibit any symptoms other than the blindness 15 that you referred to? 16 A. Yes, she did. 17 Q . What were they? 18 A. Unsteadiness in walking, numbness in the 19 limbs, the standard routine for MS. 20 Q. Any other symptoms that you can recall? 21 A. I had it pegged as MS. I am sure that 22 there are others. 23 Q. Are there any others that you can 24 remember? 25 A. Double vision, general muscular weakness, VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 29
1 headaches that subsequently went away with the 2 diet and didn't come back until 1995 with the
3 next exacerbation several years later at INS. 4 Q. When did Mrs. Leventhal first begin on 5 this diet that you prepared for her? 6 A. Shortly after Dr. Untericht. It was 7 within a week or two after we saw 8 Dr. Untericht. 9 Q. From the period when Mrs. Leventhal began 10 on this diets until but not including the 11 exacerbation in June of 1996, did you notice 12 any changes in her symptoms of multiple 13 sclerosis? 14 A. She had no symptoms with multiple 15 sclerosis. 16 Q. So from 1992 to June of 1996 before the 17 alleged exacerbation? 18 A. Well, 1996. 19 Q. Before, she did not exhibit any symptoms 20 of multiple sclerosis whatever? 21 A. She stayed away from heavy physical 22 activity which I stressed. She performed the 23 full-time job, white collar job, with no 24 physical activity and got fine reviews, and she 25 was very happy.
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1 Q. You said that you stressed no heavy 2 physical activity. Was it your understanding 3 that physical activity was not good for her MS? 4 A. Well, the whole concept is to maintain a 5 healthy balanced body so the autoimmune system 6 was placated, if you will. Physical activity, 7 and I am speculating now, of course, because I 8 am not a neurologist either, I am speculating 9 that number one that physical activity causes 10 or can cause an increase of adrenaline, 11 possibly hormonal changes - 12 Q. I don't mean to interrupt you. Just to 13 be clear, I am not questioning you as any kind 14 of medical expert or a lay expert on multiple 15 sclerosis. I would like you to restrict 16 yourself as to the understanding at the time 17 and the question is based on your understanding 18 at the time from 1992 to 1995. Was it your 19 understanding that Mrs. Leventhal ought to 20 refrain from physical activity? 21 A. Not from all physical activity. It was 22 from things like heavy lifting, strenuous 23 physical activity that might tax her. 24 Q. In your understanding at the time, where 25 was the line between optimal physical activity VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 31
1 and strenuous - 2 A. Well, you don't have to be a chicken to 3 know a bad egg. She walks around, she was 4 doing some light shopping, I would help her 5 with the shopping, walking was always 6 considered good. Just what is strenuous? It 7 is being used as a warehouse man. Strenuous is 8 working at a non-white collar job with 9 functions that require physical activity. 10 Caryl knew--this. She'd always stay- away. from 11 that sort of thing. 12 Q. Based on your observations, did Mrs. 13 Leventhal's condition remain constant from 14 approximately the period when she went on this 15 diet until June of 1995 before the 16 exacerbation? 17 A. -Yes. I watch her like a hawk. I love 18 her. 19 Q. When in 1995 did Mrs. Leventhal first 20 exhibit symptoms of what has been described as 21 the exacerbation of her multiple sclerosis? 22 A. Late June. 23 Q. And what symptoms did she exhibit in late 24 June o f 1995 ? 25 A. On June 22nd, 1995 because she had given
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1 notice to what was then her place of employment 2 prior to INS - 3 Q. Mr. Leventhal - 4 A. I want to set a chronology. 5 Q. I will give you an opportunity. The 6 question is, and I am asking you to limit 7 yourself to your observation, what symptoms did 8 you observe in late June of 1995? 9 A. She went to the hospital while at Reis 10 Reports on June 22nd which is what I was trying 11 to get at. They told her we are letting you go 12 because you gave notice, and we kept you on for 13 a few weeks longer even though you gave notice, 14 and they said you are out because we found a 15 replacement for you. She went to the hospital, 16 St. Clare's Hospital. 17 Q. I understand that she went to the 18 hospital - 19 A. She was taken there in an ambulance. 20 Q. What symptoms did she exhibit? 21 A. She was hyperventilating, she turned 22 pale, she passed out, everybody was 23 frightened. It was a trauma. 24 Q. And how long did she stay in the 25 hospital?
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1 A. One day. Shortly after that, the 2 symptoms began, but she was under stress since 3 the position at INS was unlawfully rescinded in 4 late May of 1995. 5 MR. FISHER: For the record, I don't 6 have any documents from 7 St. Clare's Hospital. 8 A. I have them. I have taken them out this 9 weekend. I can send it to you. 10 Q. Mr. Leventhal, I ask that all-exchanges 11 of documents and so on occur through your 12 lawyer. I ask that the documents that you do 13 have, provide it to your lawyer to be provided 14 to me. I would also ask that authorizations be 15 provided so I can ensure that I have a complete 16 set of the hospital records of Mrs. Leventhal's 17 stay there in 1995. 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. Once Mrs. Leventhal was discharged from 20 St. Clare's Hospital and if you restrict now 21 from that time until she began work at INS, 22 what symptoms did she continue to display? 23 A. General deterioration, standard symptoms, 24 very bad headaches, muscle weakness, dizziness, 25 standard MS symptoms. VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 34
1 Q. And before Mrs. Leventhal began her 2 employment with INS in October of 1995, did 3 those symptoms improve 4 A. She was coming out of it in October. 5 That is why she delayed going on board to INS. 6 She delayed it by a few weeks so she could 7 begin her new job on a positive note. 8 Q. When she started the new job, did she 9 have any continuing symptoms of that 10 exacerbation-in June of 1995? 11 A. Not to any extent. The exacerbation in 12 1995 was nowhere near as bad as the one in 13 1996 . 14 Q. Is Dr. Poon your treating physician as 15 well? 16 A. Well, you could put treating in quotes. 17 Again, there is no treatment. For me? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Oh, sure, sure. Sure. 20 Q. Did you come to use Dr. Poon after Mrs. 21 Leventhal found him? 22 A. Oh, definitely. I just -- I trust him 23 which is not easy for me as far as doctors are 24 concerned. I am a very independent person. 25 MR. FISHER: I ask the court reporter
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1 to make as Defendant's Exhibit P 2 a report signed by Dr. Poon. 3 [Whereupon, a report was hereby marked 4 as Defendant's Exhibit P for 5 identification, as of this date, 6 by the reporter.] 7 Q. Mr. Leventhal, please look at what has 8 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit P. Let me 9 know whether or not you recognize this. 10 A. I sure do, sir. 11 Q. And who prepared this document? 12 A. When you say "prepared," what do you - 13 Q. Let me try to break it down. Who typed 14 the document? 15 A. I typed the document after speaking with 16 Dr. Poon, and him telling me what the situation 17 was as far as his evaluation of Caryl. Then, I 18 brought it to him. I said, "Is this what you 19 wanted?" He looked and he says something to the 20 effect of, "Yes. You are even understating 21 it." I said that I tried to, you know, not to 22 put you in a position. After a few weeks of 23 calling him up and reminding him because 24 doctors are a little absentminded, I sat down 25 with him because I had to go back for a
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1 prescription or something. He said this is 2 very good. This is exactly, you know, -- I 3 have understated it and he filled it out and 4 signed it. 5 Q. Dr. Poon's handwriting accounts for all 6 the handwriting on the document? 7 A. Well, everything else is typing. 8 Q. Right. Is the handwriting 9 Dr. Poon's? 10 A. Definitely. He studied it very carefully 11 before he signed it. I could tell you that. 12 Q. I will have occasion to take 13 Dr. Poon's deposition. 14 A. Okay. Plus, the reason why I typed it 15 out is because Michael Bressler, Caryl's 16 lawyer, said that there is a format for filling 17 it out. I used the legal format for it. That 18 is why I was the one that did it. I forgot the 19 name of it. What is it? Report of condition 20 and treatment. There has got to be some legal 21 mumbo-jumbo for this type of thing. It is 22 supposed to be set up in a particular way which 23 is why I have done it. 24 Q. Following that format, you prepared this 25 format for Dr. Poon's signature?
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1 A. Subject to him telling me what he felt 2 should be in it. 3 Q. After Mrs. Leventhal began work at INS in 4 October of 1995, when was her next exacerbation 5 of multiple sclerosis? 6 A. June of 1996. 7 Q. And again, I will ask you to restrict 8 yourself as to what you observed. 9 During this exacerbation of her multiple 10 sclerosis, what did you observe-in terms of her 11 symptoms? 12 A. It started on June 10th. Actually, it 13 started on June 9th and 8th. That was a 14 weekend. I will never forget it. Really 15 relative -- I am not a doctor. I am being 16 subjective here. 17 Q. I am asking you because you are not a 18 doctor to limit yourself as to what it is that 19 you observed of her symptoms. 20 A. Unsteadiness, weakness to the point where 21 she could not stand up without rocking or 22 grabbing something, very bad headaches, severe 23 headaches which graduated inside a month or two 24 to really mental confusion. It sort of like - 25 I have been at this for 10 years. I have seen VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 38
1 Caryl. I know multiple sclerosis. It is like 2 you see things going downhill in an obvious 3 way, and, you know, it is just going to get far 4 worse if it ever gets better if it ever does. 5 It was really going down that hill very fast. 6 I have never seen it like that before. 7 Q. Did all of these symptoms come on all at 8 once or did it come up in some particular 9 order? 10 A. It never comes on at once You see the 11 beginnings of things. This just happened 12 really fast. 13 Q. What were the first symptoms to display
14 themselves as you remember it? 15 A. The ones that I have mentioned. 16 Q. When did you first see them? 17 A. The weekend of the eighth and ninth of 18 June, 1996. I know she was very upset for 19 months before that for whatever that is worth 20 which really worried the heck out of me. When 21 that happens, the balance is knocked off. You 22 know she could be heading for this. She was 23 very upset on June -- I am trying to help. On 24 June 7th when she got her final review. She 25 came home and she was unbelievably agitated.
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1 Q. On June 7, 1996 when Mrs. Leventhal 2 returned home from work, did you have 3 discussions with her about what had transpired 4 at work that day? 5 A. Oh, yeah. 6 Q. What did she tell you? 7 A. She was very upset. She had felt for the 8 past couple of months although I had felt for 9 months before that she was being set up. Caryl 10 is optimistic.- They sat her down. She said 11 Agatha Stewart and Brenda Grant gave her her 12 intermediate review. She never received a 13 final review. They noted on it that 14 essentially she had done everything wrong. 15 Agatha Stewart smiled and said something and I 16 believe Brenda Grant said what she had told her 17 many times that if you leave now, I will give 18 you a good reference. Caryl's response was, "I 19 have multiple sclerosis. You know that. I 20 never let multiple sclerosis beat me, and I 21 won't let you beat me with this." I am 22 paraphrasing. It is really close. 23 Q. When Mrs. Leventhal returned home from 24 work that day, what else did she tell you that 25 happened at work on June 7, 1996?
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1 A. She told me, "They hate me. I tried to 2 work things out. For months, I tried to work 3 things out. I did it the private sector way. 4 I thought they would be reasonable. I thought 5 that doing a good job in a department was more 6 important than their personal feelings about 7 me, but they don't really care, and they don't 8 care about their jobs, and they don't care 9 about me. It is not private industry. It is 10 how these people are different with their 11 attitudes. They place their own petty crap in 12 front of the mission. 13 Q. What you just told me, this is based on 14 your recollection of what Mrs. Leventhal told 15 you? 16 A. Certain things you don't forgot. 17 Q. On June 7, 1996? 18 A. Yes. Certain things you don't forget. 19 Caryl speaks flatter. That is what she had 20 gotten across. They have set me up and I tried 21 everything to be reasonable to work with them. 22 Q. And what did you tell her after she told 23 you this? 24 A. I was really scared because when I saw 25 her like that, I haven't seen her upset like VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 41
1 that -- I have never seen her upset like that. 2 Immediately, I thought to myself "Oh, gee". 3 You think MS. MS doesn't pop up in a few 4 days. You know things have been going on for 5 months. It is a buildup until it reaches the 6 wrong term. It is a critical mass, and you 7 really see what is going on. I was really 8 scared because I tried calming her down because 9 I just felt what could be coming. On the 10 weekend, she became progressively sicker. 11 MS. AYERS: Answer his question. What 12 did you tell her? 13 A. I just tried to keep her calm. My 14 apologies. This is an emotional time that you 15 are dragging me back into. I understand that 16 you have to. It is painful. 17 Q. From June of 1996 until today, has Mrs. 18 Leventhal ever been hospitalized? 19 A . No. 20 Q. So this June of 1996 exacerbation of her 21 MS did not require hospitalization? 22 A. Well, MS doesn't -- hospitals can't do 23 anything with MS. Sometimes, they just keep 24 them in there because they can't b e taken care 25 of at home. I devoted myself to her. She is VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 42
1 my life. She is what it is all about. 2 Q. Does Mrs. Leventhal currently collect 3 Social Security administration disability 4 benefits? 5 A. Yes, sir, she did. 6 Q. When did you begin collecting those 7 benefits? 8 A. I am thinking out loud. She applied - 9 we applied - 10 Q. Mr. Leventhal, I don't think you should 11 think out loud. Consider what your answer is 12 to the question and provide the answer, if you 13 know it. 14 A. She got her first check give or take a 15 couple of months. A year after she applied, 16 and I believe she applied in September of 1996. 17 Q. Did you assist her in applying? 18 A. She couldn't do it on her own. She was 19 by that point completely incapable of 20 functioning on a regular level. 21 Q. Did her application require any medical 22 exams? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And who examined her in connection with 25 her application for SSI benefits? VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 43
1 A. The names of the people, I don't know. 2 When you contact Social Security, you will find 3 out. It was a psychologist and a doctor. 4 Q. Were there any hearings or did 5 Mrs. Leventhal have to appear before any SSA 6 official in connection with the determination 7 that she was eligible for disability benefits 8 the first time that she applied? 9 A. She was rejected which is the standard. 10 I filled out all of the paperwork. She was 11 totally incapable of being able to function. 12 That had affected her short-term memory 13 skills. She was really in a bad way. I did 14 all of the writing. They re-investigated. I 15 don't know the exact word. She was checked out 16 again by the psychologist, by the doctor, and 17 they just approved it. She was worse then. It 18 was a real decline for a long time. 19 Q. Given Mrs. Leventhal's current condition, 20 is she now capable of employment? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And how long has she not been capable of 23 employment? 24 A. Since her exacerbation, I guess, in 1996. 25 Q. Do you or Mrs. Leventhal have in your
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1 possession any documents that relate to the 2 application for Social Security benefits 3 including the determination, the initial 4 determination, that she was not eligible and 5 the subsequent determination that she was 6 eligible? 7 A. I can look. Sure. Once she was made 8 eligible, I made her throw out all of this 9 stuff. My hard drive was too big. I may have 10 deleted some things. I will turn it over. 11 Q. To be clear, don't restrict yourself to 12 what is on the hard drive, but correspondence 13 that you may have received from the SSA. 14 A. Yes. I will have to check. Can I have a 15 few days for that? 16 Q. Yes. 17 MR. FISHER: Let's take a short break 18 now. 19 Read that back, please. 20 [Whereupon, the requested portion of 21 the record was hereby read by 22 the reporter.]
23 Q. Mr. Leventhal, are you aware of the 24 circumstances of Mrs. Leventhal's termination 25 from Reis Reports?
VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 KLEVENTHAL
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And how did you become aware of those 3 circumstances? 4 A. Through what Caryl told me, but also from 5 June 10th, on. I was very involved including 6 writing the letters and speaking to Brenda 7 Grant and Agatha Stewart as well as listening 8 in on the conversations Caryl had with Brenda 9 Grant and Agatha Stewart. 10 Q. My question related to 11 Mrs. Leventhal's termination from Reis 12 Reports. 13 A. I am sorry. 14 Q. Are you aware of the circumstances of 15 Mrs. Leventhal's termination from Reis Reports? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How are you aware of those circumstances? 18 A. Well, I know -- I don't want to go into 19 the whole story. I know that you don't want me 20 to either. We live together. We are close 21 people. I know the people at Reis Reports. We 22 have gone to parties with them, company 23 parties. Most of them were nice. 24 Q. You discussed the circumstances of Mrs. 25 Leventhal's termination with Mrs. Leventhal, is VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 46
1 that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you discuss it with anyone else aside 4 from Mrs. Leventhal? 5 A. From Reis Reports? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I picked Caryl up and took her to the 8 hospital. You know, I went to Reis Reports. I 9 got a call from Kerry Shapiro saying that she 10 was very sick telling her it would be her last 11 day. 12 Q. What day was that when they told Mrs. 13 Leventhal that it would be her last day? 14 A. June 22nd give or take a day or two. 15 Q. Of 1995? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Did they tell Mrs. Leventhal that same 18 day that it would be her last day? 19 A. Yes. No notice at all. 20 Q. And that same day, she had an 21 exacerbation of her multiple sclerosis? 22 A. The same day she was taken into an 23 ambulance to the hospital displaying signs of 24 extreme stress. 25 Q. On that day, did you speak to anyone from
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1 Reis Reports about Mrs. Leventhal's 2 termination? 3 A. Getting into a thing with them? 4 Q. No. Did you have any conversations with 5 them about the circumstances of 6 Mrs. Leventhal being told that that would be 7 her last day? 8 A. Kerry Shapiro called me up and said, 9 "Michael, could you please come over here?" 10 That is it. - - 11 Q. When Mrs. Shapiro called you, what did 12 she tell you had happened? 13 A. She sounded very upset. Kerry was a nice 14 person. She said, "I think Caryl is not 15 feeling well. She is sick. Could you come 16 over as quickly as you can?" 17 Q. Did you ever learn from anyone aside from 18 Mrs. Leventhal why it was that she was 19 terminated on that date from Reis Reports? 20 A. You mean directly from them? I think it 21 is company policy not to keep somebody after 22 they tell you [S/B "after they give notice"]. 23 Q. Did you have any conversations with 24 anyone aside from Mrs. Leventhal about why it 25 was that that was her last day at Reis Reports? VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 48
1 A. I may have spoken to Kerry Shapiro a 2 little bit about it. She said that it was 3 company policy. We kept her on. We kept her 4 on for a few weeks until we found a 5 replacement. 6 Q. Do you remember when you spoke to Mrs. 7 Stewart about that? 8 A. Probably that day. Kerry was really 9 upset, too. 10 Q. I show you what was marked as Defendant's 11 N which is a copy of a copy of the amended 12 complaint in this action. 13 A. Thank you. 14 Q. Have you seen this document before? is A. Yes. 16 Q. And who prepared this document? 17 A. I wrote up a lot of it. Michael Bressler 18 wrote up a lot of it. 19 Q. Did Mrs. Leventhal participate in the 20 drafting of the complaint? 21 A. Oh, she looks at everything. 22 Q. Please describe then what role you had in 23 drafting this complaint. 24 A. I am probably more familiar with this 25 case than anybody. I work for the association VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 49
1 of the bar. I know lawyers. I have fought in 2 the advent [S/B Admin] process for many years alone, and 3 over the years I have learned -- I am a 4 writer. Given all of that, given the fact that 5 I am able to contemplate certain things, a lot 6 of the narrative I did. I showed it to Caryl, 7 and I said, "Does this capture it?" She read 8 it slowly and said, "Yes, it does." I turned it 9 over to Michael who did his legal magic work. 10 Q. When you showed Mrs. Leventhal a draft of 11 the complaint, did she make any corrections to 12 it? 13 A. She may have. 14 Q. And when she proposed those corrections, 15 did you enter those corrections? 16 A. She is the commander in chief. 17 Q. Is that a yes? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Who actually typed the complaint? 20 A. I typed up the raw work, the narrative 21 and what have you. I E-mailed it over to 22 Michael. Michael typed the rest, and he was 23 the one that put it in the format and sent it 24 back to me for review. I messaged certain 25 technical aspects of it that has had nothing to VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 50
1 do with the actual case. It went back and 2 forth many times always showing it to Caryl. 3 Then, it was a go. 4 Q. And are you aware that there have been 5 other legal documents exchanged between the 6 parties in this lawsuit? 7 A. Like what and who are the parties? 8 Q. For response to interrogatories and
9 response to documents, yes. 10 A. This is -- bear with me. 11 Q. I am asking you what you are aware of? 12 A. So you should understand, all right, 13 Caryl is the commander in chief, I am the chief 14 of staff, Michael Bressler is the field 15 commander and Lila is a co-commander [S/B Corps CDR]. That is 16 the set up. 17 Q. And those other legal documents, were 18 they prepared in the way which is similar in a 19 way to which this was prepared? 20 A. Unless there was a type of document that 21 I have no knowledge of. We are in federal 22 court. I have been through the battles. 23 Federal court Michael knows. 24 Q. So Mr. Leventhal, you prepared early 25 drafts of each of the documents, and it went VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 51
1 through this process with Mr. Bressler and Mrs. 2 Leventhal reviewing the documents; is that 3 roughly the process? 4 A. Right. Except for certain things that 5 are federal in nature in which case Michael 6 might ask me questions or two, and I will give 7 him the answers. I am just not familiar with 8 formats in the federal sue process. 9 MR. FISHER: I ask the court reporter 10 -to- as Defendant's Exhibit Q 11 a copy of certain pages that I 12 have printed off of a web site. 13 [Whereupon, a 5-page document was 14 hereby marked as Defendant's 15 Exhibit Q for identification, as 16 of this date, by the reporter.] 17 Q. -Mr. Leventhal, I am handing you what has 18 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit Q. Do you 19 recognize this to be a copy of pages from the 20 web site Justice-Denied dot net*?
[*NOTE: The site is www.justice-denied.net] 21 A. It is an old copy. Changes may have 22 subsequently been made. I am sure they have 23 been. 24 Q. And is this a summary of the 25 administrative process that you referred to VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 52
1 earlier? 2 A. Yes. It is, sir. 3 Q. Did you prepare the summary? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And in connection with the information on 6 the web site, is Mrs. Leventhal also commander 7 in chief, to use the term that you used 8 earlier? 9 A. No. She is not commander in chief. She 10 is the publisher. I am the editor. Nothing 11 gets on unless it is approved by her. 12 Q. And throughout the administrative process 13 in this case, were you Mrs. Leventhal's 14 authorized representative? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What was the end result of the 17 administrative process? 18 A. The end result was after the US 19 Department of Justice adjudicator admitted that 20 the EEO counselor had not essentially told the 21 truth when she made the affidavit, came out 22 with an affidavit saying that we had never 23 wanted the file for religious and racial 24 discrimination. He had allowed every basis 25 that we wanted just as we had wanted originally VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 53
1 and planned. I realized that Caryl was not 2 ready for the rigors of a US EEO evaluation or 3 for going into federal court. I stalled for 4 time, and I filed for an appeal for the US 5 operations. Following it would take a year and 6 it did. By that time, we were ready to jump 7 off and go into the progression of filing suit. 8 Q. And so at that time, you reelected not to 9 pursue the process but elected to file suit? 10 A. It is rigged. It only works if they want 11 it to work. 12 Q. When you say, "it only works if they want 13 it to work," are you referring to the 14 administrative process? 15 A. Of course. I have documentation for 16 everything. There is no speculation. 17 Q. The document that you have for everything 18 that is contained in Defendant's Exhibit Q, has 19 that been sent to us? 20 A. Except for the -- except for the letters 21 that Larry Zief had written to William Michael 22 McCauley, the excellent EEO judge. We had 23 three-way conversations. I don't have them on 24 tape between Larry Zief, myself and Judge 25 McCauley. I think this whole page is detailed. VERITEXT 54
1 Q. To him? 2 A. Yes. Respectfully, that, you know, I 3 will get together as much of the motions that 4 Larry Zief made, and I think I sent you my 5 counterattacks, if you will, that were 6 virtually all essential. 7 Q. This is with the earlier issue that we 8 discussed that is simply all information 9 concerning the process that you have in your 10 possession be provided and that includes 11 information that you may have marked up. I 12 would ask for copies of any edits or comments 13 that you have made to any of the documents that 14 you have in your possession. 15 A. Oh, sure. 16 Q. Mr. Leventhal, are you aware that 17 Mrs. Leventhal claims that she was 18 discriminated against in the hiring process at 19 INS? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what is your understanding of the 22 facts on which that claim is based? 23 A. It is based on the fact that she was made 24 a formal offer in May of 1995. She was pressed 25 for a starting date which she gave, I believe VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400
(212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 55
1 it was to be June 5th, or something like that, 2 of 1995. Several days -- she gave notice to 3 the company in which she had worked and gotten 4 excellent reviews for 3 and a half years. Five 5 days she was supposed to begin, she got a call 6 from , a Robert Brewlay from INS saying that you 7 can't start. I spoke to Robert Brewlay a 8 couple of times. He stopped speaking to 9 Caryl. Caryl, of course -- what else? Should 10 I continue? I could go on and on. I am a 11 talkie person. 12 Q. Let me stop you there. You mentioned 13 conversations with Robert Brewlay. In your 14 conversations with -- 15 A. Which occurred because he stopped 16 responding when Caryl tried calling. 17 Q. In your conversation, what did 18 Mr. Brewlay tell you about why it was that 19 Mrs. Leventhal's start date had been postponed? 20 A. He said that other people had points 21 ahead of her. I said, "What kind of points are 22 you speaking about?" He stuttered and said 23 points. I said, "Other people more highly 24 rated?" He said, "Well, they claim they are." I 25 said, "What is the rating process and VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 56
1 procedure, Mr. Brewlay?" He stuttered and 2 couldn't go any further. 3 Q. Can you remember anything else about 4 conversations that you had with Mr. Brewlay 5 concerning the reason that Mrs. Leventhal's 6 start date at INS had been postponed? 7 A. I remember him saying that this has never 8 happened before, that people are busting up 9 opposition. I don't remember anything else. I 10 can only speculate. 11 Q. I ask you not to speculate. 12 Did you have any conversations with 13 anyone else from INS concerning the reason why 14 Mrs. Leventhal's start date had been postponed? 15 A. No conversations, sir. 16 Q. Are you aware that Mrs. Leventhal claims 17 that during the course of her employment at INS 18 she was discriminated against based on her 19 religion? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you have any conversations with 22 anyone from INS concerning discrimination 23 against Mrs. Leventhal on account of her 24 religion? 25 A . No.
(516) 608-2400 57
1 Q. Are you aware that Mrs. Leventhal also 2 claims that she was discriminated against not 3 only in the hiring process but also throughout 4 her advent there and in connection with her 5 termination on the account of her race? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you have any conversations with 8 anyone from INS concerning discrimination 9 against Mrs. Leventhal on the account of her 10 race? 11 A. When you say "INS," do you mean before 12 the advent [Admin] process? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A . No. 15 Q. During the course of 16 Mrs. Leventhal's employment with INS, did you 17 have any conversations with Brenda Grant? 18 A. Oh, yes. 19 Q. And when was your first conversation with 20 Brenda Grant? 21 A. My first conversation -- I really should 22 have looked it up. I came here without 23 reviewing anything. The first conversation I 24 had with Brenda Grant, and by the way, I 25 listened into all of Caryl's conversations for VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 58
1 June 10th, 11th and 12th. I heard them all. 2 Brenda Grant I believe I spoke to after Agatha 3 Stewart. I believe I spoke to Agatha Stewart 4 on the 11th. I believe I spoke to Brenda Grant 5 on the 12th of June, 1996. I did tell her we 6 have phone logs. Maybe you want to request 7 that. I will send you the phone logs. I 8 believe that phone logs are already encompassed 9 in documents requested that have been served. 10 You may have them. I will send them to you. 11 Q. We have not been provided with phone 12 logs. 13 A. From the telephone company. 14 Q. To the extent that you have them in your 15 possession, you can provide them. 16 A. I have records of all telephone calls 17 that lasted for more than three minutes. Up 18 until October of 1997, the only phone records 19 that were kept and available to the public upon 20 request were those of more than three minutes 21 of duration. While I don't have all the calls, 22 I do have some of them, and I will provide it 23 for you. 24 Q. Focus now on your first conversation with 25 Brenda Grant.
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. What did she say to you, and what did you 3 say to her? 4 A. A thirty-second background. 5 Q. Tell me what you and she said. 6 A. I am a libertarian. I assume if you are 7 going to be speaking to a federal agency, they 8 are going to be taping this. I will always 9 speak very -- not that I am an ill-mannered 10 person. I would always be calm and deliberate 11 about my words. I called Brenda Grant, and I 12 said, "Ms. Grant, this is Michael Leventhal. I 13 have Caryl standing right here." She was 14 sitting actually. "She is standing right here. 15 Before I put her on, I want to ask you, please, 16 she has an exacerbation of multiple sclerosis. 17 Please don't upset her." Brenda Grant said, 18 "She has to speak to me herself." The court 19 reporter cannot really record the way she said 20 it. I know hate filled her voice. She had 21 it. I said, "You don't understand. I will put 22 her right on. I am just asking you, please, 23 she is very sick with an exacerbation of 24 multiple sclerosis." She said, "Caryl has to 25 speak to me herself." I said that I will put
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1 her on right now. I put Caryl on. I may have 2 missed a few words here and there. Trust me, I 3 don't get a chill easily. I have seen a lot of 4 stuff in my life. This gave me a chill, her 5 voice. 6 Q How many additional telephone 7 conversations did you have with Mrs. Grant? 8 A. With Mrs. Grant, I only had one personal 9 conversation though I was listening in on all 10 of the conversations that Caryl made to 11 Ms. Grant. 12 Q. And that one conversation that you had 13 with her is the one that you just recounted? 14 A. Yes. I may be missing a few words here 15 and there. I want you to know I was very 16 precise of telling her it was an exacerbation 17 of multiple sclerosis. I was very precise 18 about her please not yelling, and I was very 19 well-mannered. 20 Q. Have you had any -- you testified that 21 you did have telephone conversations with 22 Agatha Stewart. 23 A . Yes. 24 Q. When was the first telephone conversation 25 that you with Ms. Stewart? VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 61
1 A. The first conversation that I had, I 2 believe, was the day before, and -- I may be 3 getting a day or two mixed up. Caryl called 4 Agatha Stewart. She had a mouth on her. This 5 is a really crude person. I called up the next 6 day. Caryl was trying to comply. She was 7 really sick and really trying to comply. 8 Before Caryl called Agatha Stewart up I believe 9 a second time, and bear with me, I know I 10 called up Agatha Stewart and I said that this 11 is Michael Leventhal. I was really nice. I 12 said, "Caryl Leventhal is really sick with an 13 exacerbation of --" She said, "I have nothing 14 to stay to you and have a nice day." 15 Q. So she said I can't speak to you have a 16 nice day and hung up? 17 A. She said that I have nothing to say to 18 you and have a nice day. 19 Q. Did she hang up on you? 20 A. Yes. Zoom. 21 Q. Aside from that telephone conversation, 22 did you have any other conversations with Ms. 23 Stewart? 24 A. I don't believe so. 25 Q. Aside from attending their depositions in
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1 this action, have you ever met Brenda Grant? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What about Agatha Stewart? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Is the same true for Mr. Brewlay? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. I may have asked you this. Did you have 8 any conversations with anyone from INS with 9 respect to Mrs. Leventhal's claim that she was 10 discriminated against on the account of her 11 race? 12 A. Not including the advent process. I 13 don't believe so. I don't believe so. 14 Q. As I am sure, are you aware of 15 Mrs. Leventhal's claim that she was 16 discriminated against on the account of her 17 disability? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you have any conversations with 20 anyone from INS concerning discrimination 21 against Mrs. Leventhal on the account of her 22 disability? 23 A. I don't believe so. 24 Q. When Mrs. Leventhal suffered an 25 exacerbation of her multiple sclerosis
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1 following June 7,1996, when was the next time 2 that she saw a doctor with respect to her MS? 3 A. On June 12th or June 13th. 4 Q. Who did she see at that time? 5 .A. Dr. Kam C. Poon. 6 Q. K-A-M C. Poon. 7 A. I might add that she could go earlier. 8 Dr. Poon has two offices. One is more 9 convenient. I felt best that she should rest 10 and wait until he has office hours than run 11 over early. When you have an exacerbation of 12 multiple sclerosis, it is not like they could 13 give you a shot of penicillin and it goes away. 14 Q. Did you go with Mrs. Leventhal to that 15 appointment? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Were you there when Dr. Poon discussed 18 her condition? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What did Dr. Poon say about her 21 condition? 22 A. I don't remember very much about it. I 23 was very angry, very concerned, very scared. 24 Not angry at Caryl. I was angry at what had 25 happened. I was angry at conversations at what VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 64
1 had transpired and the total casualness. Dr. 2 Poon is a philosophical guy. He said it was 3 the stress. You know, he is very soothing in 4 that respect. He said it was an exacerbation 5 of multiple sclerosis. He said that she is 6 obviously under a lot of stress. He wrote her 7 a letter saying that Caryl had an acute 8 exacerbation, please excuse. It was sent right 9 up to the chain of command and not mentioned in 10 the termination letter and a standard 11 procedure. It was saying that she has an acute 12 exacerbation of multiple sclerosis as well as, 13 I think, he mentioned hypertension and that she 14 cannot come back to work for a few weeks. 15 Immediately, it was sent to everybody from 16 Brenda Grant to Edward McElroy. 17 Q. Did Dr. Poon say also that she was 18 suffering from hypertension? 19 A. I believe so. I believe he wrote it and 20 we saw it there. Hypertension and multiple 21 sclerosis in Caryl's case go very close 22 together. 23 Q. Had Mrs. Leventhal, to your knowledge, 24 been diagnosed with hypertension before? 25 A. No. She has low blood pressure and lower
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1 than normal. She is a perfect insurance risk 2 except that she is dying. 3 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with 4 Mr. McElroy concerning Mrs. Leventhal's 5 termination at INS? 6 A.. No. Nobody has ever spoken to him. 7 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with 8 Mrs. McPherson concerning Mrs. Leventhal's 9 .termination from INS? 10 A . No. 11 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with 12 Mrs. McPherson concerning Mrs. Leventhal's 13 employment at INS? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. At the outset of this deposition, you 16 referred to Mrs. Grant and Stewart as the 17 primary discriminators against Mrs. Leventhal; 18 is that fair? 19 A. Yes. They were guilty of culmination [S/B "co-mission"]. 20 Q. When you say they "guilty of 21 culmination," in your view, they affirmatively 22 did things that were discriminatory? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did they both discriminate against Mrs. 25 Leventhal on the account of her race? VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 66
1 A. Now, you are calling for speculation. 2 Q. I don't want a speculative answer. I 3 will rephrase my question. 4 Is it your understanding that 5 Mrs. Grant discriminated against Mrs. Leventhal 6 on the account of her race? 7 A. Given the information that Caryl gave me, 8 and I have never in my life know this woman to 9 lie, never, aside from not hurting someone's 10 feelings about their dress or what have you, 11 yes. Definitely. 12 Q. But your knowledge about 13 Mrs. Grant is based upon what Mrs. Leventhal 14 told you? 15 A. Yes. And what I pick up against Mrs. 16 Grant. The best man at our wedding happened to 17 be black. This is not a sensitive thing with 18 us. I know people. I can tell you that that 19 woman hated Caryl. 20 Q. By the terms of your understanding that 21 the basis for that hatred was in part racial, 22 is that based on what Mrs. Leventhal told you? 23 A. Based on what Caryl told me was going on 24 in the office. We are very talkie to each 25 other.
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1 Q. Is the same true for your understanding 2 as to discrimination by Ms. Stewart against 3 Mrs. Leventhal? 4 A. I know the facts from what Caryl told me. 5 Q. Having met Ms. Stewart, are you aware 6 that she is white? 7 A. Yes. White, married to an 8 African-American and living, I believe, in an 9 African-American community and having 10 essentially very, very, very, close affiliation 11 and identification with the African-American 12 community. 13 MR. FISHER: I ask the court reporter 14 to mark as Defendant's Exhibit R 15 a letter from Mrs. Leventhal. 16 The exhibit consists of five 17 pages, and the letter is dated 18 June 13, 1996. 19 [Whereupon, a 5-page document was 20 hereby marked as Defendant's 21 Exhibit R for identification, as 22 of this date, by the reporter.] 23 Q. Mr. Leventhal, have you seen this letter 24 before? 25 A. Assuming it hasn't been altered in any
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1 way, yes, I have. 2 Q. Take a moment to ensure that it hasn't 3 been altered. 4 A. I wouldn't remember it. I would have to 5 match it up against my records. I will take
6 your word for it now. 7 Q. Did you prepare this letter? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And you prepared it for 10 Mrs. Leventhal's signature? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Mrs. Leventhal signed it before it 13 was sent out? 14 A. Oh, sure. Sure. 15 Q. Let me refer you to page three of the 16 letter. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Underneath the all caps it states of my 19 desire to survive -- 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Let me just read into the record the 22 three sentences following that. Unless 23 otherwise instructed by my physician, I shall 24 report to INS personnel on Monday, dune 24, 25 1996. I shall request a transfer and be open
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to any other ideas admen may have. If you wish to terminate me, I suppose that is your right. Do you know whether Mrs. Leventhal, in fact,
4 reported this to INS personnel on Monday, June 5 24, 1996? 6 A. I did. I was upset at her. She was not 7 well. She lives up to her commitments. She 8 also tells me when she does something that we 9 agreed that she was not going to do. 10 Q. Did you go with her? 11 A. No. I did not. I wouldn't have allowed 12 her to go. When I say "allowed her," only out 13 of deep concern. She was very ill. 14 Q. And when you say you can tell me the 15 whole story, is that based on what 16 Mrs. Leventhal told you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who did she meet with on June 24, 1996? 19 A. She met with Robert Brewlay [S/B "Brouilett"] who seemed 20 very -- now, I am -- do you want me to go on? 21 Q. Tell me what Mrs. Leventhal told you 22 about that meeting with Mrs. Brewlay. 23 A. She went to Robert Brewlay. She was very 24 -- how did she put it. A notice that she even 25 showed you. She said she wanted to deliver VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 70
1 certain packages of information so that it 2 could go into her personnel records including 3 the medical note. She said the man had no 4 courtesy to the extent that he motioned over to 5 her to sit on the chair, and the chair was full 6 of books or papers. She was sitting on the 7 edge. She said that she felt like she would be 8 falling. She said that she would like a
9 transfer, and can you do something about what 10 is going on right now. Again, I am-not reading 11 this. I am winging it. She [S/B "He Said"] said that she
12 can't change things ["... in the middle"] 13 Q. Tell me what you remember. 14 A. There are certain things that stick in my 15 mind. That he forced her to sit in a chair 16 with a lot of papers on it, and she had to sit 17 on the edge and felt like she was falling and 18 you can't change things in the middle or 19 whatever that means. I said, "What the hell is 20 he talking about?" She said, "I don't know, but 21 he is doing it." He said that you have to speak 22 to Brenda Grant, and Caryl said that she is the 23 one that -- she had yelled at me and this and 24 that. I can't do anything. You have to speak 25 to Brenda Grant. Those are the things that --
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1 some things in life you never forget. You 2 never forget meanness and humiliation. Things 3 I never forget. 4 Q. Do you know whether Mrs. Leventhal 5 requested a transfer at that meeting? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was Mr. Brewlay's response to her 8 request for a transfer? 9 A. I don't change things in the middle. I 10 can't change things in the middle. That is not 11 the first time that she asked for a transfer by 12 the way. I don't know if Caryl told you. She 13 went to personnel a few months before. She 14 also told them in personnel, and I have the 15 name of the person but not with me, she also 16 told them several months prior to this that she 17 had multiple sclerosis in the personnel 18 department. I can get the name of the 19 individual that she spoke to if you want. 20 Q. Based on your understanding, when was the 21 first time that Mrs. Leventhal told someone at 22 INS that she suffered from multiple sclerosis? 23 A. November of 1996. I will tell you why. 24 You want to know why? I know. 25 Q. How do you know about that?
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1 A. Okay. I told Caryl when she was starting 2 and I said, "You got this job. You got this 3 job because I made a big stink." I said that I 4 was going to file a discrimination complaint. 5 People are not going to forget this. This is 6 civil service. I know civil service through 7 the military. It could be very mean. I said 8 to go there and at the first opportunity even 9 though we sent a letter to Leonard Klein, the 10 number two person. You go there and you go do 11 exactly that. You tell as many people as you 12 can and cover your ass because I don't like 13 what they were doing this summer, and I don't 14 like the investigation that they were 15 conducting. You know all about that 16 investigation. 17 Q. In your view, if it were not for 18 complaints that you have made when 19 Mrs. Leventhal's start date was postponed, 20 Mrs. Leventhal would not have been hired? 21 A. That is my feelings because she was - 22 well, I will wait for you to ask the question. 23 I don't want to be rude. 24 Q. What is the basis of your understanding 25 that Mrs. Leventhal would not have been hired VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 73
1 absent your complaining about discrimination in 2 the hiring process? 3 A. I will give you one that really struck 4 me. 5 Q. Don't just give me one. The basis for 6 your belief. 7 A. Primarily, Caryl Leventhal was given a 8 complete security screening and approval before 9 she was made the job offer. Shortly after I 10 wrote the first complaint, she got a call from 11 a Diane or a Joanne McCauley that was from INS 12 personnel. I forgot. She requested such 13 things as a release of IRS records. She said 14 if you don't sign away your IRS records to us, 15 we have proof of all of that, you know that the 16 job would never be offered. When you hear that 17 and you hear somebody go on and say we are 18 going to be conducting an investigation and we 19 are going to be checking and going to speak to 20 your landlady and we are going to be speaking 21 to this one after an investigation is 22 completed, a full security investigation, and 23 they are doing a second one, I could tell you 24 that I know about civil service like I know 25 about the military, that means they are setting VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 74
1 you up. She also, I might add, obscured who 2 was conducting the investigation making like 3 was it OPM. We thought OPM was after Caryl. 4 The person conducting the investigation was a 5 Steven Smith in Vermont in April of 1996 seven 6 months after she began employment, Steven Smith 7 was still conducting the investigation against 8 her. 9 Q. Why is it that you think that 10 Mrs. Leventhal was-being subjected to what you 11 perceived to be an excessive investigation of 12 her background? Why do you think this was 13 being done? 14 A. Because I don't think that she was 15 forgiven for filing a complaint after the job 16 was rescinded, and I think there were people 17 who said who the hell is she and who the hell 18 is he to make these complaints. I think they 19 were determined to make life difficult. I 20 won't do any further speculation. I am not 21 interested in getting into a whole thing. I 22 see a certain logical imperative here. I have 23 seen it in other circumstances. Not in the 24 private sector. In the public sector where it 25 has a more crude quality to it. VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 75
1 Q. When you say there were people determined 2 to make her life difficult, do you know who 3 these people were? 4 A. Steven Smith was conducting the 5 investigation. Speak to Steven Smith and why 6 it was a never-ending investigation. You put 7 enough pressure on him. He said maybe it was 8 him. I don't know. I just know this is very 9 out of the norm. 10 MR. FISHER: I ask that the court 11 reporter mark as Defendant's 12 Exhibit S a two page letter from 13 Mr. Leventhal dated February 20, 14 1998. 15 [Whereupon, a 2-page letter was hereby 16 marked as Defendant's Exhibit S 17 for identification, as of this 18 date, by the reporter.] 19 Q. Mr. Leventhal, please review this 20 exhibit. Let me finish. It was a letter that 21 you wrote to Diane Weaver. 22 A. If it was unaltered, it was a letter that 23 I have written. It was a letter that appears 24 to be written by me. Oh yeah. Oh, sure. I 25 remember this.
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1 Q. Let me refer you to the second page, last 2 sentence in the paragraph that begins had 3 always been my feeling -- let me read the 4 sentence that I am interested in into the 5 record. Now, it is plain that INS has gone too 6 far by covering for people at 26 Federal Plaza 7 who has committed at least one felony by 8 attempting to intimidate the captioned 9 claimant. Who is it that you believe committed 10 this felony? 11 A. Now, I don't remember. I have to think 12 about it. I don't remember offhand. I don't 13 remember what I was referencing. It has been a 14 while. I am agitated also. I can tell you I 15 am not a lawyer. All right. You know that. I 16 consider -- I consider when you take an 17 individual that you know has multiple sclerosis 18 that you know has a disability and you force 19 them to climb seven feet unsteady shelving, 20 stick an unsteady step ladder under them and 21 then when she pleads for help, you stand around 22 laughing and you want her to fall and crack her 23 head open so you can replace her, I will tell 24 you, since this is a civil suit, but this is 25 the closest thing that I come to a criminal
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1 act, I consider this to be an attempted 2 murder. It may have been that or other 3 things. I consider when you have an 4 administrative process that has committed many 5 instances of obstructing justice, lying in 6 affidavits, that you have a situation where 7 crimes have been committed under administrative 8 law and under federal law, specifically, I 9 would say I don't remember offhand what this 10 was about. I would have to read it on the 11 train. 12 Q. Let me draw your attention to the first 13 page, paragraph number two. Please review that 14 to yourself and let me know whether that 15 refreshes your recollection as to what the 16 felony may be referring to. 17 A. Page one? 18 Q. Yes. Paragraph two. 19 A. Okay. Let me tell you - 20 Q. Assuming that one thing connects to the 21 other. This is your letter. It was a long 22 time ago. I am trying to determine what it is 23 that you remember. Let me ask the question. 24 Does looking at the paragraph number two 25 help to refresh your recollection as to what VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 78
1 the felony references on page two may be 2 referring to? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it referring to? 5 .A. In November of 1997 we were informed by 6 Peter Shilling, the INS contract investigator, 7 that if Caryl did not give an affidavit with a 8 tracked [S/B "truncated"] set of basis that did not include 9 racial or religious, they said that they are 10 looking to close this out. They want this case 11 closed out. They claim you were not 12 cooperative and the complaint is killed. We 13 had agreed that we would continue or Caryl 14 would continue in the affidavit, and after it 15 was over, I did a little research because, 16 again, you know a setup deal when you see a 17 setup deal. I discovered according to the 18 administrative ruling that you can file for a 19 review with the US Equal Employment Opportunity 20 Commission. They do not have a right to make 21 decisions in administrative law. It gets 22 bounced back to the agency. They have a right 23 to review and recommend. I wrote in early 1998 24 requesting a review by a US EEO judge, 25 administrative law judge. I sent two letters VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 79
1 to the deputy director. It was Diane Weaver at 2 the time. I know there was an earlier one who 3 has since been promoted. In any event, I sent 4 two letters by certified mail. By this time, I 5 must tell you, my faith in the system had been 6 diminished somewhat. 7 Q. I think my question was what does the 8 felony reference? 9 A. According to law, I have that right or 10 Caryl has that right to have a review by INS 11 EEO. I called up, they lost the letters. I 12 spoke to somebody, a Mrs. Elerby, who was nice 13 and professional. I faxed in copies of those 14 letters remaining on the telephone. She 15 received them in January. I got a certain 16 amount of time to do this or else you lose that 17 right. Those faxes were subsequently lost. I 18 had to write a letter to Janet Reno by 19 certified mail saying that I was going to get 20 in touch with the newspapers before because of 21 the faxes. It was a felony, certainly, when 22 going against federal rules. 23 Q. When you referred to obstruction of 24 justice, and I realize that you are not 25 speaking as a lawyer, sir, you are referring to VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 80
1 actions that were taken by individuals in INS 2 at all levels; is that right? 3 A. INS, EEO from the time that we legally 4 and validly put through the complaint and it 5 was not accented to the time effected to the 6 time, that they finally gave in and turned it 7 over to INS or to the US Equal Employment 8 Opportunity Division. 9 Q. And you believe that the purpose of the 10 obstruction was to avoid or stifle 11 Mrs. Leventhal's complaint of discrimination? 12 A. Racial and religious. Want me to tell 13 you why? 14 Q. Why what? 15 A. Why I believe that they were doing this 16 because of discrimination? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Because I spoke to -- it was a ratty 19 lawyer of a fellow named Larry Zief, the deputy 20 regional counsel. Everything that I am telling 21 you we would swear to under a polygraph, and I 22 spoke to him, and he introduced himself and he 23 read the complaint, and he said that I have no 24 doubts that everything that you say is true. I 25 said, "Are you going to do anything about it?" VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 81
1 He said no. I said why. He said, "Because we 2 don't want a racial problem. If we go after 3 Brenda Grant, she would scream racial 4 discrimination and we can't have that." I said, 5 "So you are going before a sick woman to try 6 to keep these basis to be brought forth and 7 keep it down to a certain period of time and 8 only physical, right?" He says yes. I said, 9 "That is not very nice, is it?" He said that 10 we have to do it. I said, 11 "Has there ever been 11 a case of a white person going through this 12 process accusing a black person of anti-white 13 racism that has gotten through?" He said, 14 "Well, you are. We have got one now." 15 Q. Just so I understand, it is your view 16 that people were working at various levels in 17 the regional counselor's office and INS and EEO 18 and locally at INS to prevent this complaint of 19 discrimination of getting through because it 20 related to an allegation of anti-white racism? 21 A. By a black person or by someone 22 affiliated with the black community. Yes. I 23 am not saying that they, themselves, were 24 racist. I am saying that there was a concept 25 of putting a lid on this stuff because they VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 82
1 didn't want trouble. 2 Q. If I draw your attention to paragraph two 3 on the first page and refer to 4 Mr. Atkinson, it says that he was skulking on 5 the other side of the door for one hour. Is 6 this something that you saw or 7 Mrs. Leventhal told you about? 8 A. I witnessed it, sir. Would you like me 9 to tell you what happened?
10 Q. Yes. -
11 A. I was with Caryl, she was giving her 12 deposition to Peter Shilling in November of 13 1997. Caryl was not well. I mean, she will 14 never fully recover. She had to come in and 15 she was not feeling well. She had to put cold 16 water on her face. I went over to the door 17 with her, opened up the door, and here is this 18 tall, slim guy glaring and goes and moves back 19 a little bit from the door and Caryl looks at 20 him. I move between almost instinctively 21 between Caryl and him. He is glaring at her, 22 and we walked outside, and I asked Caryl who is 23 that. She said that he works for Brenda 24 Grant. I said what does he do. He is a DAO.
25 What is his name? She had to think about
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1 that. She said Ron Atkinson. I said, "What 2 the heck did he think he was doing up in 3 personnel?". She said, "I don't know. Maybe 4 Brenda sent him up to listen in. I think that 5 she did send him up there to check up." 6 Sometimes there is nothing, something I don't 7 know. Maybe he had to fill out papers. In any 8 event, when we came back, he was still there 9 only hiding in the corner facing away from us. 10 We went back in and gave the testimony. I 11 don't remember whether I opened up the door or 12 not and stared at him in the face. I truly 13 don't. 14 Q. Let me refer you back to paragraph two in 15 Defendant's Exhibit S. Is it S?
16 A. I don't know. Is it? 17 Q. Yes. To stifle Mrs. Leventhal's 18 complaint of discrimination. 19 A. You mean directly? Did they say stifle 20 it? Is that what you are trying to ask me? 21 Q. No. You used that word. I am asking you 22 what you meant. 23 A. I believe that a commander is responsible 24 for the acts of the people under him. I have 25 always felt that one good thing about federal VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 84
1 service is that if you write a letter, you will 2 get a response. I wrote a total of forty-seven 3 letters, probably, or maybe forty or around 4 that. You have pretty much all of them. We 5 wrote letters with copies going right up and 6 originals going to myself and Reno. I don't 7 think it ever directly reached them. I will 8 tell you something. Their staffs took it and 9 tore them up or they are the most inefficient 10 people that I have come across. People are 11 responsible for the actions of their staff. I 12 am responsible for the actions of my staff and 13 the association. That is what military and 14 business is about. 15 Q. In your view, these are not letters that 16 simply fell through the cracks? 17 A. No. Too many letters. Especially when 18 they are articulate. That is no coincidence. 19 It has been a long time since my college 20 courses. The probability is very low. 21 Q. In your view, there was a deliberate 22 attempt to prevent information about these 23 complaints from being addressed? 24 A. I think there are certain things that you 25 don't talk about. One of them is reverse VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 85
1 racism involving a black committing racism and 2 religious brutality against a white person with 3 multiple sclerosis with a vulnerability. I 4 think that the bureaucracy says we kill these 5 things because we don't want trouble. 6 MR. FISHER: I ask the court reporter 7 to mark as Defendant's Exhibit T 8 a letter dated December 10, 1997 9 from 10 Mr. Leventhal. This exhibit is 11 three pages. 12 [Whereupon, a 3-page letter was hereby 13 marked as Defendant's Exhibit T 14 for identification, as of this 15 date, by the reporter.] 16 Q. Mr. Leventhal, please let me know whether 17 or not you recognize this to be a copy of a 18 letter that you wrote. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is this a copy of a letter that you 21 wrote? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Referring to the first page of the letter 24 to the paragraph that begins "please 25 understand" that is approximately in the middle VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 86
1 of the page after the boldface type? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let me read it. Please understand that 4 unless a satisfactory resolution of this tragic 5 case can be found by EEO, I will be forced to 6 file civil suit against the justice department 7 while I will prepare Caryl - 8 A. You mean the lawsuit? 9 Q. Correct. 10 A. She might say no- I -can tell you that I 11 find it is stressful. You know, it is not -- I 12 would have preferred that it be worked out on 13 the administrative level. I am not a litigious 14 person nor is Caryl. We were forced into this 15 by the Immigration and Naturalization Service 16 and by their actions on the administrative 17 level: I almost feel sorry for the US Attorney 18 for having to get a case like this. This 19 should have been worked out on another level 20 but was compounded on that other level. You 21 know, Eric, every time we have -- this has gone 22 on for 4 years. Every time we have reached a 23 new level, I turn to Caryl and I say, "You 24 know, maybe a more intelligent group is going 25 to get this. At INS when it reached the
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1 regional counsel, I said that the lawyers are 2 going to get it. It can be worked out. They 3 will see what is wrong. Even when we file suit 4 in federal court, I turned to Caryl and I said 5 the US Attorney has got it. They are going to 6 do the right thing." This has been 4 years of 7 everybody. I am not accusing you of doing the 8 wrong thing yet. Every level that we have gone 9 to on this case has been people that we wanted 10 to do the right thing that did nothing or were 11 just mean and nasty and tried to crush this. 12 Q. Have you ever been involved in any 13 lawsuits before? 14 A. Never. 15 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 16 A. Never. Which is why I talk so much. 17 MR. FISHER: I ask the court reporter 18 to mark as Defendant's Exhibit U 19 a letter dated April 8, 1998 20 from 21 Mr. Leventhal. This is a six 22 page letter. 23 [Whereupon, a 6-page letter was hereby 24 marked as Defendant's Exhibit U 25 for identification, as of this
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1 date, by the reporter.] 2 Q. Mr. Leventhal, I am handing you 3 Defendant's Exhibit U. Is this a letter that 4 you wrote to Mr. Zief on April 8, 1998? 5 A. Within the context that I am a nonlawyer, 6 all right, the context that I am a writer and 7 we tend to write in a fluid way within that 8 context that - 9 Q. Did you write this letter? 10 A. Oh, sure. 11 Q. Let me turn your attention to the third 12 paragraph. We never said that Caryl was 13 terminated because she had multiple sclerosis. 14 Our contention has always been that this case 15 involves anti-white racism and anti-racism, and 16 Brenda Grant in consort with others who closed 17 ranks behind her to use Caryl's multiple 18 sclerosis to make her too sick to work and 19 force her out. 20 A. That is why I was trying to explain. 21 Again. I am not a lawyer. This is my 22 speculation. My feelings are that the -- I 23 don't know why this fits in legally or not. 24 Cut me some slack with this. 25 Q. What did you mean when you wrote that?
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1 A. What I meant was the primary focus of her 2 discrimination, the primary focus not 3 necessarily the conclusive focus was that they 4 used her multiple sclerosis to brutalize her 5 and make her too sick and force her out. 6 Q. And it is then fair to say that the 7 reason they sought to brutalize her was because 8 she was white and she was Jewish? 9 A. It sounds logical to me. I am not 10 thinking as a lawyer. 11 Q. I am asking what your understanding is of 12 what it is that Mrs. Leventhal suffered. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That is your understanding? 15 A. Yes. That is my understanding. 16 MR. FISHER: I am handing the court 17 reporter a document dated April 18 14, 1998 which is a letter from 19 Mr. Leventhal to Judge McCauley. 20 [Whereupon, a letter was hereby marked 21 as Defendant's Exhibit V for 22 identification, as of this date, 23 by the reporter.] 24 MS. AYERS: Off the record. 25 [Whereupon, a discussion was held off
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1 the record.] 2 Q. I am handing you, Mr. Leventhal, what has 3 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit V. Mr. 4 Leventhal, please review this document and let 5 me know whether this is a copy of a letter that 6 you have written. 7 A. Yes. It is one of the letters that I had 8 written to him. 9 Q. Was this letter written on 10 Mrs. Leventhal's behalf? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did she review this letter? 13 A. As best as she could. You got to 14 remember, Mrs. Leventhal is not the 15 Mrs. Leventhal that she used to be. She was 16 less of what she used to be on April 14, 1998 17 than she is now. 18 Q. Let me ask you generally about the 19 process of writing letters to the INS EEO 20 during the course of the administrative 21 process. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Did you consult with Mrs. Leventhal 24 during that process to ensure that your letters 25 accurately reflected the positions that she VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 91
1 wished to take in the administrative process? 2 A. Throughout the administrative process, 3 and allow me a few words to explain it. You 4 come home from work, you cook, you clean and 5 then, you write letters to answer briefs and do 6 things that you have never done before until 7 2:00 in the morning. Then, you go back to work 8 again the next day. You do the best that you 9 can not being a lawyer. You show it to your 10 wife and you show it to her a few times and you 11 try to explain. Not being a lawyer you can't 12 look and say we have to phrase it this way and 13 phrase it that way or else they will get us on 14 this technicality or that but you don't really 15 know. You don't know. You actually trust the 16 other side to some extent. It is the 17 government. It is your government. You wear a 18 uniform, damnit. It is your government. Maybe 19 I am not answering it. Caryl reviewed it. 20 There are a lot of things that she doesn't 21 understand on a conceptual level. You speak to 22 her, and she sounds like she knows, and she can 23 talk histories and facts of the past. Certain 24 things she just can't do anymore. I am not a 25 lawyer. I couldn't afford a lawyer for this. VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 92
1 You just do the best that you can to be as 2 truthful as you can, and maybe you use wrong 3 words and because you are a writer you are a 4 little too flowery and you don't think that 5 people are going to jump on a word and tear it 6 apart, and they are not going to understand a 7 word that you are saying. 8 Q. Did she review the letters? 9 A. She reviewed it as best as she could 10 review it. 11 Q. How did Mrs. Leventhal come to retain Mr. 12 Bressler in this lawsuit? 13 A. Michael Bressler is a member of the 14 association of the bar. We had decided in 15 early 1999 that we were going to be filing 16 suit. I was shopping around because now 17 suddenly lawyers are actually interested in 18 this case because it has passed all of the 19 paperwork and the whole thing. I wanted to 20 find I lawyer that I felt would have some 21 energy and maybe understand what we were doing 22 because there was more than money involved. 23 Integrity, principle, name and heritage 24 involved in what we wanted. I have known all 25 of these guys for a long time. I am friendly VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 93
1 with a lot of members in the association 2 because of the position that I am in. I met 3 Steve Bennett who is a state lawyer, and we 4 were talking. He was talking about this guy 5 Michael that is energetic. I said, "Heck, I 6 know him. I was the one that got his computer 7 for him and recommended it." He came down with 8 Lila and explained the case. I invited him 9 over to our apartment to meet with Caryl, and 10 we told him and explained and said "Look, this 11 is something where there is more there than 12 money. Her records have to be changed, slander 13 must stop and honor must be served." He said 14 okay. I think you are stupid. That is a 15 joke. Lawyers don't understand these things. 16 That is how Michael was retained. Caryl 17 approved of him. He won't sell us out. I said 18 great. I think he is okay, too, and we will 19 all work together on this. 20 Q. Just a few additional questions. 21 Has Mrs. Leventhal been diagnosed with 22 any anxiety disorders? 23 A. Before? 24 Q. Before June of 1995.
25 A. Not that I know of.
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1 Q. What about following June of 1995? 2 A. The neurologist that diagnosed her found 3 out that she was, you know, said that she was 4 depressed. Social Security was like really 5 upset because, you know, she was in a very bad 6 way at that time. She still can't work. She 7 was very depressed. The whole process has 8 been -- she feels that the government has 9 turned their back on her. 10 Q. You testified that Social Security 11 administration was upset. 12 A. No. They saw that she was very upset. 13 That is why I get the checks. I validate 14 whatever expenses there are through the checks 15 to show that everything was -- it is not a lot 16 of money, that everything was spent for Caryl. 17 Q. Why is it that you get the checks? 18 A. They felt that she was not equipped on 19 that level to handle the financial, you know - 20 they were gentle about it. Basically, she was 21 not -- don't expect her to do checkbook 22 balancing and stuff like that. 23 Q. Have you, yourself, ever been a victim of 24 discrimination in your employment? 25 A. Have I ever been mistreated? Sure. I
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1 have been discriminated against. Like they 2 don't like my looks. 3 Q. Let me limit my question. Have you ever 4 been discriminated against on the account of 5 being white? 6 A. I think it was with people's stupidity. 7 Q. That is not the question. On the account 8 of being white. 9 A. I have worked in and around companies 10 where-on occasions you felt that other groups 11 were given more preference. I don't view 12 things in that way. Legally, you have to. In 13 the private sector, you brush this stuff off. 14 To discriminate religion is irrational. You 15 are hurting your own company. I usually will 16 just say the guy is a jerk or this one is a 17 jerk. I don't walk around with that nor does 18 Caryl. 19 Q. I am not sure that I understand your 20 answer. I think you have testified that you 21 have been in work environments that white 22 groups got preferences - 23 A. I have been in work environments that 24 non-white groups have been treated worse 25 because they are non-white. What I am saying
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1 is that I find the whole thing to be 2 distasteful. I have seen both sides. It 3 doesn't make sense and it is stupid and it is 4 nonproductive. Have I been victimized? Sure. 5 Have other people been victimized like Caryl 6 was? No. No way. It is all degrees. There 7 is no comparison to anything that happened to 8 me that happened to Caryl. That is why you say 9 that I have to react on a philosophical level. 10 Q. I am not asking a philosophical 11 question. You have testified that you have 12 been victimized in your employment on an 13 account of your race. 14 A. As of everybody. Have I filed a 15 complaint? 16 Q. Have you ever filed a complaint? 17 A . -No. 18 Q. How have you been victimized on the 19 account of your race? 20 A. That is speculation because I have never 21 filed a complaint. If you don't file a 22 complaint, you feel that it is not of a level 23 of significance to be worth discussing. 24 Q. So you have been discriminated against. 25 A. Yes. As is everybody else. I want to
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1 qualify that. I know where you are leading 2 with this. I want to tell you -- I want to 3 tell you that I think that tribalism and that 4 is how I view it, tribalism is prevalent upon 5 all groups. Whites have it, whites with ethnic 6 race have it, blacks have it. I have seen 7 discrimination by native-born blacks, and I 8 have seen discrimination by reformed Jews and 9 orthodox. It is all tribalism. It is all 10 wrong. Nothing that happened to me was ever of 11 a level that I couldn't handle rationally. I 12 was not retried by a system, and I had never 13 had to file a complaint. Some stuff in level 14 you just brush off. 15 [Continued on the next page to allow 16 for signature line and j urat . ]
la 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 Q. Did Mrs. Leventhal tell you that she did 2 not want to pursue her complaint any further? 3 A. Never. Caryl Leventhal is more adamant 4 than I am. 5 MR. FISHER: No further questions. 6 Thank you. 7 [Whereupon, the examination of the 8 witness was concluded at 1:05 9 P.M.] 10 Michael Leventhal 11 Subscribed and sworn to 12 before me this _--_ day of _----___-___-, 2000. 13 ----------------------- 14 Notary Public 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400 MLEVENTHAL
1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE 3 M. Leventhal Mr. Fisher 3 4 5 E X H I B I T S 6 DEFENDANT'S DESCRIPTION PAGE 7 P Report 35 8 Q 5-page report 51 9 R 5-page document 67 10 ... : . _ .. _._
S 2-page letter 75 11 T 3-page letter 85 12 U 6-page letter 87 13 V Letter 89 14 15 REQUESTS 16 Page Line 17 20 9 21 18 18 33 10 33 14 19 5 8 14 20 21 22 23 24 25 VERITEXT (212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400
Commentary and Editor's Notes written and Copyright © by: LTC Michael G. Leventhal
Copyright 2000 Reproduction with written permission. Contact: Michael @Justice-Denied.net