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Cross Examination of Gwen McPherson
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NOTES: Above each page you will find the words "DIRECT," "CROSS," "RE-DIRECT" and "RE-CROSS." Direct Examination involves questions by the US Attorney. Cross Examination is conducted by Caryl Leventhal's lawyer. After Cross Examination, the US Attorney will attempt to deflect admissions made during Cross Examination. Lastly, Caryl's lawyer will attempt to rebut in any Re-Cross. Only the Cross Examination testimony is being included. This is not being done for purposes of censorship. Rather, it is to keep this site from bogging down in text. Gwen McPherson was a bit player who rubber stamped the actions of Brenda Grant. Ms. Grant is the main adversarial player and was the driving force in the alleged persecution of Caryl Leventhal and her text will appear in its entirety. Gwen McPherson (Brenda Grant's supervisor) had little first hand knowledge of what was going on. However, she completely backed Brenda Grant's actions. |
SEPTEMBER 26, 2000
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
4 Plaintiff,
5 v. 99 Civ. 10405 SAS
6 JANET RENO, Hon., Attorney
General of the United States,
7
Defendant.
8
------------------------------x
9
New York, N.Y.
11
Before:
12
HON. SHIRA A. SCHEINDLIN,
13
District Judge
14
APPEARANCES
15 MICHAEL R. BRESSLER
Attorney for Plaintiff
16 LILA AYERS
SHERILYN DANDRIDGE
17
MARY JO WHITE
18 United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
19 ERIC FISHER
SHEILA GOWAN
20 Assistant United States Attorneys
21 TRIAL
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
212-805-0300
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. BRESSLER:
24 Q. Ms. MacPherson, during 1995 and 1996, on what floor of 26
25 Federal Plaza was your office?
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MacPherson Williams - cross
1 A. 1995, it was on 10 and then I moved down to 8 in 1996 when
2 I got the position I'm in now.
3 Q. OK. Well, when -- OK.
4 Where was your office in relation to Ms. Leventhal's
5 office in 1995?
6 A. She was in the clerical pool on one side of the floor and
7 I was sort of like in the middle --
8 THE COURT: Also on 10?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was on 10. I was like in the
10 middle of the floor.
11 BY MR. BRESSLER:
12 Q. OK. Well, did you have -- how often did you personally
13 observe the work of Ms. Leventhal?
14 A. When I was up there, pretty much -- I would see her -- if
15 she was in that day, I would see her pretty much every day
16 when I was on that floor at some point.
17 Q. OK. Have you ever seen her carrying boxes?
18 A. No, I haven't.
19 Q. Have you ever seen her climbing up shelving?
20 A. I might recall seeing her -- we had like a little ladder,
21 a stepladder that you need to get up to get to some of the
22 higher racks of shelves, of files that are in shelves.
23 Q. Well, have you ever -- you testified that Mrs. Leventhal
24 never complained to you. Did you ask -- did you encourage her
25 to bring any complaints to you at any time?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. OK. Well, if Ms. Leventhal had a complaint about her job
3 conditions and so forth, she would -- the normal chain of
4 command would be to go to her first-line supervisor, isn't
5 that correct?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. So it's not unusual that she did not complain to you about
8 anything on the job because you are her second-line supervisor
9 and then her -- above the third-line supervisor, isn't that
10 correct?
11 A. She could have complained, let's put it that way. But if
12 you say it is not unusual, you are right, she will go to the
13 first-line supervisor first and then up the chain of command
14 as she wished to do.
15 Q. OK. Now, you testified that sometimes a person who has a
16 good interview turns out not to be a good employee. Isn't it
17 also true that sometimes someone who has a good interview does
18 become a good employee?
19 A. Yes, that's true.
20 Q. OK. Now, you testified that you don't recall whether you
21 said anything when being shown a picture of Mr. Leventhal.
22 Could you possibly have said something?
23 A. I might have.
24 Q. Could you have made a face, perhaps, that you don't
25 remember right now?
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1 A. That's possible.
2 Q. OK. Now, if someone -- do you consider someone writing an
3 address One Federal Plaza instead of 26 Federal Plaza, a
4 major blunder?
5 A. I would assume after you work someplace for a couple of
6 months you know what address you're working at.
7 Q. OK. I mean, have you ever made a mistake on an address in
8 your life?
9 A. Oh, probably at some point.
10 Q. Now, after -- well, say in February 1996, from that period
11 on, did you have occasion to view Ms. Leventhal's work?
12 A. Rarely. I was on another floor.
13 Q. So isn't it correct that virtually all your knowledge
14 about Ms. Leventhal's work comes from what you were told by
15 Brenda Grant?
16 MS. GOWAN: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 Is that true?
19 MR. BRESSLER: It is cross-examination.
20 THE COURT: Yes. Is that true or not true?
21 Do you want to hear it again?
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, please.
23 BY MR. BRESSLER:
24 Q. Isn't it correct that most -- almost all you know about
25 Ms. Leventhal's job performance came from conversations you've
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1 had with Brenda Grant?
2 THE COURT: He used the word "almost all."
3 A. Pretty much except for what I observed when I was up there
4 those four months.
5 Q. OK. Do you recall ever viewing a picture of
6 Ms. Leventhal's stepson?
7 A. I might have. I can't say with absolute certainty but I
8 might have.
9 Q. OK.
10 A. I really can't say for sure.
11 Q. Do you recall what your reaction was to that?
12 A. I can't even recall if I ever really saw it at this point.
13 Q. OK. Now, are you married, Ms. MacPherson --
14 MS. GOWAN: Objection. Relevance.
15 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
16 MR. BRESSLER: Just a second, your Honor.
17 (Pause)
18 BY MR. BRESSLER:
19 Q. Ms. MacPherson, could you tell us on what basis you
20 approved of the termination decision of Brenda Grant?
21 A. Her recommendations, the things that she had, along with
22 the package to show errors and problems that she was having.
23 Q. OK. So essentially you, we can say, rubber-stamped that
24 decision; you didn't really independently come to that
25 determination?
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1 A. Well, it was also factored in with the knowledge that I
2 had of what her performance was when I was up there.
3 Q. OK. Did you know -- well, and you really had no
4 knowledge -- no personal knowledge of her performance at least
5 after -- from February 1996 on, isn't that correct?
6 A. No -- right.
7 Q. OK. And do you know what the condition of Ms. Leventhal's
8 health was at the time you agreed to the termination of
9 Ms. Leventhal?
10 A. I believe she was out. She might have been out on leave
11 when this thing actually went through.
12 Q. OK. Well, is it a usual practice to terminate a person
13 who is out on sick leave?
14 A. It's possible. That she was probationary, as well; she
15 was on a probationary period.
16 Q. Do you recall any other examples of an employee who was
17 terminated while they were out ill in your --
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. OK. Do you know when that occurred?
20 A. Well, there was a person that was terminated. She had
21 been out for a year on leave without pay, and after a year you
22 are able to terminate someone because you need the position
23 filled.
24 Q. But other than that one example?
25 A. That I can recall right now, that's the one I can recall
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1 most recently.
2 Q. OK. Now, if -- well, from what you have observed of
3 Ms. Leventhal on your own, did you ever tell anyone we should
4 terminate her, just on your own personal observation?
5 A. No, at that time, no.
6 Q. So what you saw personally, from your observations of
7 Ms. Leventhal's work, was not sufficient for you to recommend
8 termination?
9 A. At that time, possibly no.
10 Q. OK. How many clerks are there in Section -- were there in
11 Section 245 in the period of 1995/1996?
12 A. It would probably range between 20 and 30. There is about
13 20 permanent clerks and then we had co-op students, and I
14 believe at that time we started taking on some term employees,
15 as well.
16 Q. OK. And do you know what the racial composition of that
17 20 or 30 -- 15 to 20 employees were?
18 MS. GOWAN: Objection, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. BRESSLER: OK. I have nothing further.
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Commentary and Editor's Notes written and Copyright © by: LTC Michael G. Leventhal
Copyright 2000 Reproduction with written permission. Contact: Michael @Justice-Denied.net
